Greek myths

[Jovial Monk]

If fusion power ever gets developed, clean, safe, effectively unlimited energy global economic growth won’t be a myth and maybe third world countries can then move into first world country status.

[Leftwinger]

No I'm not.

Constant economic growth, on a global scale, is a myth. It will end sometime.

Waving the majic "free money" wand wont stop it.

Well that's possibly true. But if it does happen, it won't be because the world has run out of money. Money is not a resource as such - it's a tool by which actual, physical resources are brought to bear.

Greece's main problem is that it's governent is not fully sovereign monetarily - it gave up that right voluntarily upon entering the Euro - and must therefore finance it's spending by obtaining what is effectively a foreign currency from outside.

The demands of the troika for endlessly increasing austerity are making it impossible for Greece to grow in any meaningful way. The fiscal squeeze is such that real, physical resources cannot be effectively brought to bear.

So huge numbers of Greeks workers (20% currently - that's more a depression than a recession) and a lot of real capacity lies idle - all for the want of an abstract medium which a former Greek government voted to give up control of, in the belief that they would be better off joing the Euro-herd. And for a while, it worked. Large French and German banks were only too happy to lend lots of money to Greece, and Goldman Sachs - aka the vampire squid of Wall street - helped the government of the day hide it's true fiscal position with "creative" accounting.

Interestingly, the current unelected Greek PM (who recently spouted off about democracy despite the fact that he himself was installed by the troika rather than elected by the Greek people) was actually a senior member of Goldman Sachs' Euro division at the time the loans were made.

Anyway, whatever Greece does it's in the shit. But I think I would rather have the dignity of resuming my own sovereignty and making my own decisions for myself, rather than be forever a chained-up milking cow for foreign powers.

Foreign powers who seem intent on milking the cow to death.

[mantra]

So huge numbers of Greeks workers (20% currently - that's more a depression than a recession) and a lot of real capacity lies idle - all for the want of an abstract medium which a former Greek government voted to give up control of, in the belief that they would be better off joing the Euro-herd. And for a while, it worked. Large French and German banks were only too happy to lend lots of money to Greece, and Goldman Sachs - aka the vampire squid of Wall street - helped the government of the day hide it's true fiscal position with "creative" accounting.

It's no surprise Goldman Sachs is involved. While half the US went bust during the sub-prime crisis - Goldman Sachs made a healthy, but amoral fortune by short selling mortgage back securities. They even profited from betting on the collapse of the sub-prime market. Perhaps they've placed a bet on Greece's collapse also.

For the last decade money has been thrown around like confetti without a thought as to how it should be paid back. Perhaps Greece was a trial case in how the IMF could render a country insolvent - then buy it back cheaply at a fire sale. It will no longer be an independent nation, but a subsidiary of a greater organisation. It could happen to us too eventually. We are not as economically viable as our leaders tell us and are increasingly purchasing more from overseas than we're producing here. Our foreign debt is unsustainable.

Today the people of Greece have to decide whether to sell themselves out completely by accepting the status quo and another bail out - or get nothing but go to fresh elections and hope that a new leader can get them out of this mess.

Either alternative would be terrifying.

[Jovial Monk]

Greece should tell the krauts to fuck off and leave the EZ. Being poor is better than being a slave.

[Leftwinger]

Perhaps they've placed a bet on Greece's collapse also.

I have a feeling that that actually was the case Mantra.

It could happen to us too eventually.

The Australian government cannot run out of Australian dollars to spend - their deficit spending is the ultimate source of net creation. They can volunteer to run out, but they cannot be forced into insolvency in their own currency of issue.

We are not as economically viable as our leaders tell us and are increasingly purchasing more from overseas than we're producing here. Our foreign debt is unsustainable

I don't see the external deficit as being unsustainable per se - we have sucessfully sustained it for a long time - but I agree that it is currently indicating the existence of a set of conditions that I am not very comfortable with. I agree that the hollowing out of our productive capacity is not in our best interests long term.

An external deficit typically means that we are getting more real, useful things from foreigners than they are getting from us. We get the real, useful consumer and capital goods - they get our intrinsically worthless bits of paper and blips on computer screens in return.

But that's too simplistic - it can mean that our economy is becoming more unbalanced as we give up the capacity to make things for ourselves. I think that by outsourcing all of of manufacturing capacity to foreigners, we are giving them something very much more valuable than bits of paper and computer screen blips - we are handing them ownership of the means of production. It creates a skill drain, a brain drain and having RD done overseas means that the valuable spin-offs and accidental useful discoveries that occur are lost to us as well.

I am very uncomfortable thinking about where this might eventually lead but in an economy as open as ours, our chances of competing with cheap manufactured imports are somewhere in the realm of zero. Australians have clearly demonstrated that we don't care about Aussie manufacturing jobs - we just want cheap goods to fill our overvalued houses with. If we want to retan some sembalence of an ability to do anything for ourselves, choices will need to be made.

[Jovial Monk]

And yet some manufacturers are doing quite well.

Look up “lean manufacturing.”

It means companies actually listening to people that run the machines on the factory floor. Radical notion that! Really runs counter to Lib crap like WorkChoices and too many CEOs thinking of their workers as a cost. Practical suggestions for quite small changes can save quite a bit of money directly for the company and ensure their machines are running at full speed for longer.

[boxy]

No I'm not.

Constant economic growth, on a global scale, is a myth. It will end sometime.

Waving the majic "free money" wand wont stop it.

Well that's possibly true. But if it does happen, it won't be because the world has run out of money. Money is not a resource as such - it's a tool by which actual, physical resources are brought to bear.

Well, derr.

The thing is, money is only worth what it is agreed to represent... and it represents real, physical resources... gold, iron, labour, infrastructure... they all have an agreed monetary value. Tampering with the amount of money only changes how much of these resources each pebblecoin can buy.

Reality check.

Not every nation can be equally successful. Sure, it sucks that European nations, full of people just like us, are in danger of becoming basket case economies. But, if you want my opinion, encouraging their population to continue to demand "their entitlements", regardless of it's cost, is doing nothing but encouraging the core problem for the western world.

The myth that you're entitled to "the good life". You're not.

[Leftwinger]

Well, derr.

Thank you.

The thing is, money is only worth what it is agreed to represent... and it represents real, physical resources... gold, iron, labour, infrastructure... they all have an agreed monetary value.

Then I suggest you try extinguishing your tax obligations to the government in gold, iron ore, bartered services or the Sydney harbour bridge and see what happens. You will find they accept one medium and one alone - the very same dollars that they themselves created in the first place.

In fact, try handing over a lump of iron ore at the checkout and see how far you get. You might have more success with gold - but this is because it can be readily exchanged for Australian denominated finacial assets (money), which can in turn be exchanged for any number of useful things. Your employer agrees to pay you money because the product of your labour can be exchanged for more money, and so on. None of these things have a fixed, unchanging monetary value.

The thing we call money carries rather deeper significance than you are ascribing to it.

Tampering with the amount of money only changes how much of these resources each pebblecoin can buy.

Are you arguing that net money creation by government automatically equalls runaway inflation?

Not every nation can be equally successful.

Well, certainly not every nation can be an export-led economy, otherwise there would be no one else to export to. I think the definition of success might be a little broader.

Sure, it sucks that European nations, full of people just like us, are in danger of becoming basket case economies

Too late - they already ARE basket cases. If the austerity burdens being enforced on them were lifted, their chances might improve somewhat.

But, if you want my opinion, encouraging their population to continue to demand "their entitlements", regardless of it's cost, is doing nothing but encouraging the core problem for the western world.

Which entitlements are you referring to? They want JOBS. Jobs that pay a decent living wage - and that ain't gonna happen to any great extent under the weight of what is being enforced upon them.

[IQS.RLOW]

Too late - they already ARE basket cases. If the austerity burdens being enforced on them were lifted, their chances might improve somewhat

Rubbish. Advocating the status quo is just throwing good money after bad. Despite your ignorance, there is no endless bucket of money but I'm sure you would fit in well in a regime in Zimbabwe where you can revel in your trillion dollar bank notes that wouldn't buy a 5 cent lolly

Which entitlements are you referring to? They want JOBS. Jobs that pay a decent living wage - and that ain't gonna happen to any great extent under the weight of what is being enforced upon them.

They want govt jobs that pay a fortune, have early retirement and massive pension schemes...unionized shit that got them into trouble in the first place.

[boxy]

The thing is, money is only worth what it is agreed to represent... and it represents real, physical resources... gold, iron, labour, infrastructure... they all have an agreed monetary value.

Then I suggest you try extinguishing your tax obligations to the government in gold, iron ore, bartered services or the Sydney harbour bridge and see what happens. You will find they accept one medium and one alone - the very same dollars that they themselves created in the first place.

In fact, try handing over a lump of iron ore at the checkout and see how far you get. You might have more success with gold - but this is because it can be readily exchanged for Australian denominated finacial assets (money), which can in turn be exchanged for any number of useful things. Your employer agrees to pay you money because the product of your labour can be exchanged for more money, and so on. None of these things have a fixed, unchanging monetary value.

None of which changes the fact... money is useless without it's agreed upon representation of real world value.

The thing we call money carries rather deeper significance than you are ascribing to it.

Bullshit. Money is only good for representing wealth.

If your wealth can't buy you real stuff, in the end it's useless to you.

Tampering with the amount of money only changes how much of these resources each pebblecoin can buy.

Are you arguing that net money creation by government automatically equalls runaway inflation?

In the context of a fucked up economy, yeah.

Not every nation can be equally successful.

Well, certainly not every nation can be an export-led economy, otherwise there would be no one else to export to. I think the definition of success might be a little broader.

Yeah, sure. Economies can be successful while being self sustaining, and living within their means. Maybe the Greeks could try that? If they don't want to pay their bills, they mightn't have a choice.

But, if you want my opinion, encouraging their population to continue to demand "their entitlements", regardless of it's cost, is doing nothing but encouraging the core problem for the western world.

Which entitlements are you referring to? They want JOBS. Jobs that pay a decent living wage - and that ain't gonna happen to any great extent under the weight of what is being enforced upon them.

Their entitlements to ipods and junk food, a TV in every room, hooked up to a playstation and broadband internet.