Dear freeloader

[mantra]

What is this article talking about then?

An ETS.

If buying carbon credits from overseas is an ETS - then this new tax must also be an ETS under a different guise.

Labor's carbon pricing scheme relies substantially on the purchase of overseas carbon credits to achieve pollution reduction targets by 2020.

The coalition says the government is not being honest by claiming its carbon tax will reduce Australia's emissions.

It has written to Prime Minister Julia Gillard demanding the government abandon a $25 million advertising campaign promoting the carbon tax because it doesn't tell Australians about the need to purchase overseas credits.

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/br ... arbon-ads/

[Mattus]

Mantra; The labor framework is a carbon tax beginning in 2012, implemented over 3 - 5 year upon which it switches to a cap and trade system (an ETS). I'm not sure if Freediver doesn't know this, or is relying on your own ignorance of the policy to win the argument.

IQS; Where is widget A going to be manufactured to dodge the tax? China? They will tax carbon by 2012. Taiwan? Already taxing carbon. India? That's a half trillion dollar carbon tax right there... Germany? Ich bin eine "okologische steuerreform"... Korea? You guessed it... Sweden? They have been taxing carbon for two decades and still average 3% growth. In the USA Colorado, California, and Maryland already tax carbon (yes okay they are all blue states...)

[freediver]

The example given was for export market products which has no bearing on your deflection regarding carbon tax wealth redistribution

Yes it does IQ. I did not claim the benefit would flow through to the business via increased domestic purchasing power, but through the domestic labor market.

If buying carbon credits from overseas is an ETS - then this new tax must also be an ETS under a different guise.

No.

Mantra; The labor framework is a carbon tax beginning in 2012, implemented over 3 - 5 year upon which it switches to a cap and trade system (an ETS). I'm not sure if Freediver doesn't know this, or is relying on your own ignorance of the policy to win the argument.

I am referring to the tax. Anything could happen after the next election.

[IQS.RLOW]

IQS; Where is widget A going to be manufactured to dodge the tax? China? They will tax carbon by 2012. Taiwan? Already taxing carbon

Wrong

Yes it does IQ. I did not claim the benefit would flow through to the business via increased domestic purchasing power, but through the domestic labor market.

So you are implying that the carbon tax will reduce wages?
How does your magical carbon tax improve the labour market?

Do you think that employers and manufacturers are going to wait for your magical carbon tax to show a magical reduction in labour input costs (ie people's wages) or do you think they will investigate other production sites where fuckwits like yourself aren't pushing stupid ideas?

[freediver]

So you are implying that the carbon tax will reduce wages?
How does your magical carbon tax improve the labour market?

It will inevitably reduce before-tax wages. You cannot shift the tax burden from income to commerce and expect that everyone will have more spending power just because their after-tax salary goes up. This is the shortcoming of your simplistic 'widgets and pustules' analysis. There will be corrections to both the labor market and exchange rates so that people's buying power, and the buying power of the nation as a whole on the international markets, is roughly the same as before the changes. The only real long term changes will be that we use less electricity, fuel etc.

Do you think that employers and manufacturers are going to wait for your magical carbon tax to show a magical reduction

Why is it that critics of the carbon tax inevitiably start rejecting mainstream economics? Do you think this is a good look?

[IQS.RLOW]

It will inevitably reduce before-tax wages.

The only real long term changes will be that we use less electricity, fuel etc.

Why don't you just say it is designed to reduce our standard of living?

Why is it that critics of the carbon tax inevitiably start rejecting mainstream economics? Do you think this is a good look?

Why is it that the proponents of the carbon tax inevitiably refuse to answer direct questions and invariably deflect towards the "art" of economics? Do you think this is a good look? Too hard for you?

[freediver]

Why don't you just say it is designed to reduce our standard of living?

Because it is not what I mean. You were effectively arguing it would increase our standard of living. You just didn't realise it. That's what happens when you reject economics.

Why is it that the proponents of the carbon tax inevitiably refuse to answer direct questions and invariably deflect towards the "art" of economics? Do you think this is a good look? Too hard for you?

I did give you a direct answer. I explained the mechanism. If you don't like the answer that is not the same thing as me not giving it.

[IQS.RLOW]

Because it is not what I mean

It is what it is

You were effectively arguing it would increase our standard of living

spin worthy of a showride

I did give you a direct answer. I explained the mechanism. If you don't like the answer that is not the same thing as me not giving

Explaining the mechanism is not the same as giving an answer. You are still very young. You should go back and finish that Tafe book keeping course

Do you think that employers and manufacturers are going to wait for your magical carbon tax to show a magical reduction

Why is it that critics of the carbon tax inevitiably start rejecting mainstream economics? Do you think this is a good look?

[freediver]

Do you have an actual criticism of any of my points? Or are we already back to the same old IQ again?

[IQS.RLOW]

If you have a point, go ahead and show it. Or are we back to the same old freeloader again?

Do you think that employers and manufacturers are going to wait for your magical carbon tax to show a magical reduction

This is the third time I have asked you this and I gather this will be the 3rd time you will run from it