Superstition by stealth

[Outlaw Yogi]

Diminishing logical thought patterns and instituting or favouring particular theological themes and superstitions for the masses by govts/rulers is nothing new. And non believing govts/rulers implementing, supporting or retaining such social regimes is probably is old as superstition itself.

Now it seems non believer John Howard's attempt to curry favour with jesus freaks via his school chaplaincy scheme needs adressing, because the superstition pushers are proslethsizing as expected, in violation of the program's guidlines, and the scheme itself is unconstitutional.


Disciple claim sparks call for chaplain funding freeze
http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/australian ... ng-freeze/

Access Ministries, which received a funding boost in the federal budget, provides chaplains to 280 Victorian schools on the proviso it does not push religion onto students.

The organisation was today accused of breaching those guidelines after the ABC found a 2008 speech in which its head said chaplains "have a God-given open door to children" and "need to go and make disciples".

"A very narrow group of Christian ministries are ... going [into schools] to try to reverse the decline in membership of the churches and get children converted to Christianity and make them active churchgoers,"

Access Ministries has called for its supporters to take "urgent action" to defend the program, which it says for some children is the "only introduction to the values that underpin a biblical understanding of God, the world, themselves and others".

[Jovial Monk]

The chaplaincy program is also the only way some abused/neglected etc kids are able to discuss what happened to them and what their issues are.

Don’t tar the whole program by the actions of a few.

[Outlaw Yogi]

The chaplaincy program is also the only way some abused/neglected etc kids are able to discuss what happened to them and what their issues are.

Don’t tar the whole program by the actions of a few.

Child victims are the ones in most need of protection from jesus freak cultists.
If parents want their offspring pumped full of superstition, they can pay religious schools to do it for them, which are already parcially govt funded. I don't see why taxpayers should finance of any variety of cultist org to brainwash impressionable or psychologically damaged youth via the secular school system as well.

In many parts of the world there's a growing consensus that *Christians' [sic] should not have access to children.
Although IMO christianity in general is christian in name only, demonstrated by their anti-christian dogmas and practices constantly professed in the name of Jesus.
Technically the term *Christian [sic] used to identify such cult members is a misnomer, because in reality the Roman church erradicated the christians about 1600 years ago, while usurping and perverting the Jesus theme. And everything that evolved from it (except Islam) is just a reproduction of the perverted Jesus theme.

Note: Islam was a protest religion/movement against Byzantine christianity, like protestantism was against catholicism, but with an altered deity and guru theme.

Anyway, IMO religious orgs of any flavour are a danger to vulnerable individuals, especially children.

[Jovial Monk]

No, you are not listening! The chaplains are someone a child in need can talk to when they can’t talk to parent or teacher. They have done a lot of good—and I was as hostile as you to the chaplain idea of Howard.

You need to rely a lot less on prejudices, Yogi Bear.

[Outlaw Yogi]

Public schools already had (onsite) counsellors in the 1980s.
What possible benefit can there be in regressing from secularism to theology?

[Jovial Monk]

I just told you. The program has actually delivered good results for kids most in need of help. The fact a few tried to convert kids shouldn’t overshadow the good results obtained.

[Outlaw Yogi]

Just 'coz you said so, does not make true, and typically you have not presented a scrap of evidence to support your claim.

You adamantly claim this program is beneficial or successful, but without confirming details means nothing.

So a simple googling of school chaplaincy results http://www.google.com.au/search?q=schoo ... =firefox-a comes up with ...

1st link ..
National School Chaplaincy Program states ..

A two stage consultation process was conducted in 2010 and 2011, the results of which will be made publicly available in the near future.

http://www.deewr.gov.au/schooling/natio ... /home.aspx

.. so am I to believe you are in possesion of as yet unpublished (2011) results? ... because the 2010 report has been found by all independent analysis to be nothing more than unsubstantiated claims and hollow motherhood statements.

2nd link ...
John Kaye - NSW Greens MP
http://www.johnkaye.org.au/campaigns/ed ... -justified

The Greens challenge the validity of both the report and its use to justify the continuation of the program, on the grounds of:

¨ unsound research method (absence of control group) leading to unjustified conclusions: the report fails to compare results with schools that do not have chaplains but have similar access to welfare and community liaison workers. While claiming a number of benefits for school communities derived from the presence of the chaplains, the report fails to account for the positive impacts of an additional welfare-focussed staff member other than by virtue of their chaplaincy, and

¨ lack of independence: the report failed to disclose the affiliation of one of the authors to the Christian Research Association[2], established and run by a number of Christian churches that provide many of the chaplains.

Report author - PHILIP HUGHES .. a clear conflict of interest ..
http://www.cra.org.au/pages/00000232.cgi

Philip Hughes is the senior research officer of the Christian Research Association. He has worked for the CRA since it was established in 1985. ... Philip Hughes works four days per week for the CRA. He is also employed by Edith Cowan University on projects on church and community and insecurity and well-being.

3rd & 4th links are all a Lib party jesus freak's campaigning for the programe not to be scrapped.

5th link is the Fed govt's program guidlines ..
http://www.dest.gov.au/NR/rdonlyres/6EE ... 0Jan07.pdf
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cac ... dhT2kTxeaw


6th link .. Legal challenge to school chaplains
http://www.smh.com.au/national/educatio ... 14v5q.html

Australia's school chaplaincy program faces a constitutional challenge in the High Court as opposition grows to having government funding paying for God's representatives in state schools.

Labor and the Coalition have said they will make $220 million available over four years to fund 1000 more chaplains, but the Australian Psychological Society has said the program is dangerous to children's mental health.

7th link is Access Ministries in Vic banging on about how wonderful they are.

8th link .. School chaplains not representative
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nationa ... 6004703831

Schools "criticised the program for requiring school communities to agree on a chosen chaplaincy service, which is usually only one person and therefore one faith, rather than a service which represents the range of faiths one may find within a school community," it says.

"Some stakeholders expressed that their key criticism of the program is the religious nature of the chaplaincy position . . . and the program is inconsistent with a principle of 'religious neutrality' under which the Australian government has largely operated," the paper says.

9th link .. Scrap school chaplaincy program - Carr
http://www.optuszoo.com.au/news/top/new ... arr/355075

“It is indefensible that all taxpayers are required to support a program that is gradually becoming church evangelism,” Bob Carr told The Punch.

“There is enough feedback now to show that quite understandably chaplains cannot confine their activism. Evangelical work is their lifeblood and it’s naïve to expect them not to pursue it around young people. They can’t because of their training. They can’t approach these matters from any other perspective.

“As a result we have got breaches of what should be a very thick wall between church and state.”

10th link .. Skepticator.com has a quite a list of material concerning this dodgy scheme ..
http://skepticator.com/search/chaplaincy

Care to elaborate by what measure and via what source your advocacy for cultist's access to children is based?

[Jovial Monk]

No I can’t, but the secondary or tertiary source (PollBludger) was from atheists who had opposed the scheme initially. Even Bob Carr is really just talking, doesn’t quote any real source.

Sometimes you need to put aside your prejudices.

[Outlaw Yogi]

No I can’t,

Yet make a blanket statement in support of it.
You would sound far more credible and would have negated such a challenge, if you had admited it was your personal opinion or were led to believe via whatever source what you claim to be the case.

but the secondary or tertiary source (PollBludger) was from atheists who had opposed the scheme initially.

Then why not reference it and/or quote relevant portions supporting your position?

Even Bob Carr is really just talking, doesn’t quote any real source.

How could you know? .. he could have been holding, citing or paraphrasing the very (contested 2010) report itself, without the article stipulating so ... whatever the case, he clearly has access to relevant (indepenently assessed) material that we don't.

Sometimes you need to put aside your prejudices.

Sometimes, but not when it comes to jesus freak cultists ... they're always dangerous.

[Jovial Monk]

Didn’t make a blanket statement, said some kids had been helped. So if the evangelising is minimal I think the program is worthwhile. Or are your convictions so insecure you can’t stand an argument to the contrary?