October 2008 the second hottest after Oct 2003

[mantra.]

As the Arctic warms up and sea ice coverage decreases the Suns heat falls on dark water which absorbs it rather than on white ice/snow which largely reflects it global warming increases. Likewise frozen tundra thawing will also emit much CO2. These tipping points are of major concern to those who know this stuff. IPCC predictions are always exceeded.


and they are? Im still cautiously sceptical of the whole thing and Im not sure humans can stuff up a planet "all by themselves"...we were born with socalled superior brains and were expected to evolve in the ways in which we have..the higher intelligence that put us here would not have allowed such a dangerous toy to fall into such ignorant hands.. we are only using by pruducts of earth after all..thats like saying having our own blood returned to us during a transfusion is poisonous and will kill us

It's what we're doing with the by products. We dig all the goodness out of the earth and don't replenish it. We litter our oceans with rubbish, poisons and plastics. Even Russia was or is dumping all their nuclear waste into the sea. Daily we're stripping global forests in order to make way for industry and with all the Co2 being emitted - are there are enough plants and trees to absorb it all.

I'm still not sure on this global warming panic - but we do need to start cleaning up in a big way and disposing of our wastes and poisons properly, driving less and planting more trees.

We need less people. Perhaps all the natural disasters that are ahead of us will help clean the planet up a bit and eliminate a few of us.

[Jovial Monk]

The thing is, we are burning fossil fuels, oil and coal. These have been forming over tens of millions of year but we have burned pretty much all the oil in a litlte over 100 years. You may think ths has no effect but you would be wrong!

Active CC deniers either:

1. Are afraid of any change and so deny the need, Sheepthought probably fits in there.

2. Are comfortable and don't want to make the minor changes that are all that is needed AT THIS STAGE to counteract CO2 accumulations

Both are dyed in the wool Lieberal supporters by and large.

[Outlaw Yogi]

Well I've been bangin on for years that the implications of GHG induced GW/CC will come much faster and have far greater impacts than any so called experts have been willing to admit or realise.
I noticed that melt down scenarios were being done in isolation rather than inter-related, as 'if the Greenland ice-shelf goes, sea/ocean levels rise 7 metres/24 feet' ... and 'if Antarctica thaws, sea/ocean levels rise 60 metres/200 feet' .. bla blah ect.
So I did rough guesstimate of the Arctic, Antarctic, Greenland and all the glaciers going into melt-down and came up with a figure of 97 metre sea/ocean level rise ... so might as well round it off to 100 metres.
If that sounds unrealistic, you're probably unaware that sea/ocean level were 120 metres lower than they are today during the last ice age [upto roughly 18,000 years ago] and that ocean levels have been hundreds of metres higher than today. Don't actually know how much higher, but I've found sea shells in sandstone boulders on or near the top of 400 metre [max] high hills/mountains and cliff faces in NSW and a conglomerate of various rocks in sandstone boulders along ridge-lines in Qld.

But ... yeh I know I'm not spozed to initiate a paragragh with a but, but it's a big but, so .... a few people have realised that as sea/ocean levels rise, they raise and salinate aquifers and cropping lands will become salt pans, but hardly anybody has realised that salt literally disolves bricks and cement .... entire cities are going to fall down as their walls and foundations crumble. And logging every single plantation and native forest in the country would not provide enough materials to replace all the ruined suburbias.

A prediction of mine [from a few years ago now] is/was that as people increasingly vote with their wallet and ditch petrol and diesel in favour of solar electolysis (with solar thermal to speed process) of brine extracted hydrogen to run internal combustion engined vehicles just like we currently do on LPG/CNG (which the best 10-14% of is hydrogen, and rest mostly methane), the petroleum oil industry (which doesn't stay with energy via renewables ect) will manufacture pre-fab bolt-together plastic kit buildings [with wiring & plumbing built in] to cope with salty ground.
No kidding, if we don't induce a Paleocene or Permian like extiction event, I reckon in 30-50 years (post rebuilding) suburbia will resemble a plastic Disneyland.

Unfortunately since that time (of the prediction) it seems that we have passed the 'Tipping Point' for inducing runaway global warming, and just may be headed for a re-run of the Permian Extinction.

Run for the hills ... the Doomseekers are coming

The methane time bomb
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien ... 38932.html

Underground stores of methane are important because scientists believe their sudden release has in the past been responsible for rapid increases in global temperatures, dramatic changes to the climate, and even the mass extinction of species. Scientists aboard a research ship that has sailed the entire length of Russia's northern coast have discovered intense concentrations of methane – sometimes at up to 100 times background levels – over several areas covering thousands of square miles of the Siberian continental shelf.

... we documented a field where the release was so intense that the methane did not have time to dissolve into the seawater but was rising as methane bubbles to the sea surface. These 'methane chimneys' were documented on echo sounder and with seismic [instruments]."

At some locations, methane concentrations reached 100 times background levels. These anomalies have been seen in the East Siberian Sea and the Laptev Sea, covering several tens of thousands of square kilometres, amounting to millions of tons of methane, said Dr Gustafsson. " ...

[mantra.]

but it's a big but, so .... a few people have realised that as sea/ocean levels rise, they raise and salinate aquifers and cropping lands will become salt pans, but hardly anybody has realised that salt literally disolves bricks and cement .... entire cities are going to fall down as their walls and foundations crumble. And logging every single plantation and native forest in the country would not provide enough materials to replace all the ruined suburbias.

We've already got plenty of salt plains, although I thought it was due to over production of the soil. I live a km from the sea and I'm always finding little shells in the garden and hope I'm dead before the sea claims the peninsular back. There are mountains about 10 km away and fossiled sea creatures are found there regularly.

As far as our aquifiers becoming salinated - that won't happen in NSW because there won't be any left thanks to the over production of longwall mining cracking every basin in the vicinity.

Unfortunately since that time (of the prediction) it seems that we have passed the 'Tipping Point' for inducing runaway global warming, and just may be headed for a re-run of the Permian Extinction.

Yes an extinction sounds feasible - we should have started planning for this planet's sustainability decades ago, but instead we just keep producing more people and more industry.

[Auzgurl]

Unfortunately since that time (of the prediction) it seems that we have passed the 'Tipping Point' for inducing runaway global warming, and just may be headed for a re-run of the Permian Extinction.

Yes an extinction sounds feasible - we should have started planning for this planet's sustainability decades ago, but instead we just keep producing more people and more industry.

And on that note I am bound to be plagued by indigestion tonight..thanks guys.

Although Im not convinced, I do try to in my own way make a difference..for even if the small changes I make are not ultimately for the right reasons in a GW sense..they certainly make sense in so much as they save energy and therefore dollars. Most pple will comply for both reasons.

[Outlaw Yogi]

Unfortunately since that time (of the prediction) it seems that we have passed the 'Tipping Point' for inducing runaway global warming, and just may be headed for a re-run of the Permian Extinction.

Yes an extinction sounds feasible - we should have started planning for this planet's sustainability decades ago, but instead we just keep producing more people and more industry.

And on that note I am bound to be plagued by indigestion tonight..thanks guys.

Although Im not convinced, I do try to in my own way make a difference..for even if the small changes I make are not ultimately for the right reasons in a GW sense..they certainly make sense in so much as they save energy and therefore dollars. Most pple will comply for both reasons.

Apologies for playing Doctor Doom, but things look pretty grim. And I'm sorta pi$$ed off, 'coz those with the power to effect change to clean energy sources have been obstructionist, and all the effort is left upto the little guy, predominantly via greenwash $cams woven into rat race consumer madness/junk culture. I've spent a large portion of the last 15 or so years converting a bush block into my retirement hobby farm. Already gets to 38+ C in the shade and doesn't rain alot. If things get too extreme, my little forest could wind up a dust bowl through no major fault (other than participation in hydrocarbon energy use) of my own ... ie as in ecologically destructive land practices ect.
So while I use bugger all of anything, 'cept maybe orange juice (should see how empty my garbage bin usually is) and often ride motor or push bikes rather than drive whatever car or van I've got at the time, the rest of the world seems hell bent on trashing this planet ASAP.

International Energy Agency 'blocking global switch to renewables'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 ... wer-energy

The international body that advises most major governments across the world on energy policy is obstructing a global switch to renewable power because of its ties to the oil, gas and nuclear sectors, a group of politicians and scientists claims today.

The experts, from the Energy Watch group, say the International Energy Agency (IEA) publishes misleading data on renewables, and that it has consistently underestimated the amount of electricity generated by wind power in its advice to governments. They say the IEA shows "ignorance and contempt" towards wind energy, while promoting oil, coal and nuclear as "irreplaceable" technologies.

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[Greens-Media]

TURNBULL CONFIRMS FEARS THAT MILL CANNOT BE SHUTDOWN

... As Brer Garrett Throws Gunns Into Briar Patch of Own Choice

Kim Booth MP
Acting Greens Leader

Wednesday, 14 January 2009
Contact: State Parliamentary Offices of the Tasmanian Greens, (03) 6233
8300

http://www.tas.greens.org.au


The Tasmanian Greens today questioned whether Federal Environment
Minister Peter Garrett lied to the Tasmanian people about strengthening
the penalty for any effluent breaches at Gunns' proposed pulp mill,
after Federal Opposition Leader Malcolm Turnbull revealed that Minister
Garrett had in fact downgraded the maximum penalty from a mill shutdown
to a financial fine.

Acting Greens Leader Kim Booth said that, just like Brer Rabbit, Gunns
had requested a change to the penalty regime and silly old Brer Garrett
had fallen for it, effectively throwing Gunns into the briar patch of
their own choice.
Mr Booth also expressed grave fears for Tasmania's fishing industry
which relies on the clean and green brand to market fish overseas, and
which will be severely harmed by ongoing marine pollution from Gunns'
proposed mill.

"Minister Garrett falsely claimed last week to have strengthened the
penalty regime for effluent breaches at Gunns' request, but it is now
obvious that he has actually downgraded the maximum penalty applicable
and then misled Tasmanians about his actions," said Mr Booth.

"Just like the stupid Brer Fox and Brer Bear, Brer Garrett has heard
Gunns' pleas about penalties for breaching effluent guidelines, and then
given them exactly what they wanted by removing the government's ability
to shutdown the mill if marine pollution breaches acceptable
guidelines."

"It now appears that Gunns and Garrett have conspired to remove the
Federal Government's ability to shutdown the mill if it breaches its
effluent guidelines."

"The Minister has taken Gunns' bait hook, line and sinker, and this
spells very bad news for Tasmania's fishing industry, brand and wider
economy."

"The duplicity of Minister Garrett and Gunns Ltd in claiming that the
penalty regime had been strengthened is breathtaking."

"The only real protection from the mill's marine pollution has now been
removed - there is now no way that government can order the mill to
cease operation if it breaches pollution limits."

"This audacious deception about effluent breach penalties simply
compounds the litany of deceit that has been foisted onto Tasmanians
during the entire mill approval process," said Mr Booth.

FORESTRY TASMANIA PRIORITISING LOGGING OF CONTENTIOUS FORESTS

In Blatant Move to Destroy Conservation Values

Kim Booth MP
Acting Greens Leader

Monday, 12 January 2009
Contact: State Parliamentary Offices of the Tasmanian Greens, (03) 6233
8300

http://www.tas.greens.org.au


The Tasmanian Greens today called on Forestry Tasmania to clarify
whether it is prioritising logging operations in old-growth and high
conservation value forests following a Tasmania Police raid on a
protestor's camp in the contentious Florentine Valley.

Acting Greens Leader Kim Booth MP said today's decision to remove
resistance to logging in the Florentine should be seen as nothing more
than a precursor to FT's strategic vandalism of high conservation value
forests in the area, at a time when the woodchip industry is
experiencing serious reductions in volume and while Tasmanian ports are
drowning under enormous woodchip stockpiles.

Mr Booth also thanked the protestors in the Florentine Valley for their
work in defending forests that the Prime Minister promised to protect
from clearfelling in 2006, only to renege on that commitment after
winning the 2006 election.

"The Greens have been reliably informed that FT staff across the state
have been instructed to identify old growth and high conservation value
forests in their district for strategic logging operations that are
clearly designed to destroy the conservation values of these contentious
areas of forest," said Mr Booth.

"Why are FT moving to prioritise the logging of contentious high
conservation forests while the industry is experiencing a severe
downturn and while woodchip stockpiles are growing at all three
Tasmanian woodchip export ports?"

"Former Prime Minister John Howard committed to preserve the Florentine
forests prior to the 2006 federal election, but after Howard won that
election he and former Premier Paul Lennon announced an 'agreement' that
reneged on the commitment to the Florentine, leaving the community with
no option but to blockade the forests in question."

"Tasmania's high conservation value forests are irreplaceable assets
that will be worth far more to Tasmanians if left standing as carbon
stores than as woodchips for Gunns Ltd, so why are FT prioritising their
logging at this particular time?," said Mr Booth.

Secret Tillegra to Sydney study exposes a dam with no use

Media release: 9 January 2009

Documents uncovered by The Greens show that the Iemma government and Hunter Water conducted a study in early 2007 into connecting the proposed Tillegra dam near Dungog to Sydney's water supply.

Commenting on a story on page 5 of today's Newcastle Herald, Greens NSW MP John Kaye said: "Both Hunter Water and the NSW government were floundering around looking for an excuse to justify their announcement, a few months after it had been made.

"It is a sign of the desperation the Iemma government and Hunter Water were experiencing in early 2007. Having announced the project, they were prepared to even look at the absurd notion of pumping water to Sydney to find a justification.

"Hunter Water engineers surely knew that this would have been outrageously expensive.

"Having surrendered population growth and the needs of the Central Coast as excuses for building the dam, these documents knock over the only other possible justification, drought-proofing the Lower Hunter.

"If Tillegra really were essential to maintain secure water supplies through a drought, as Hunter Water and the Rees government argue, then any consideration of sending this supposedly precious security to Sydney should have been immediately dismissed.

"Each drop of Tillegra water ought to have been zealously guarded by Hunter Water to provide protection from the apocalyptic drought that its Managing Director, Kevin Young, is trying to scare people into thinking will one day cause the Lower Hunter to run out of water.

"The people of Newcastle and the Lower Hunter have every right to be angry. Their water bills are about to blow out to pay for a dam for which the government cannot find a reason to build.

"We will continue to follow the paper trail once parliament resumes in early March. We will be looking for the reactions of the government's and Hunter Water's planners to being forced to find a justification for an unnecessary and expensive project," Dr Kaye said.

For more information: John Kaye 0407 195 455