Free Counselling for Theists!

[Sappho]

Sappho, what makes you think that a "guiding intelligence" is more rational than the weak anthropic principle?

I haven't made a claim about intelligence either. Mathamatical ability of itself does not identify an intelligent entity necessarily. God/s could be savants for all we know and whilst we acknowledge savants to have extraordinary ability, we don't therefore say they are intelligent.

Maybe it was my analogy of the aquarium that led you to this idea of a guiding intelligence. If so, you have to appreciate that it was only an analogy to help readers understand how you can create something without actually being a part of that creation or even exist in that creation.

Moreover, the universe in which we exist, because of the uncertianty principle, seems to preclude a guide. Our universe would have to be more determined than it is for gods that guide to be allowed into the picture.

[boxy]

Regardless... what is it that makes you think that the "someone made it" answer is better than the "it just happened, the only thing that makes this reality special is that there is someone around to observe it" version? Because at the heart of honest philosophical expoloration, there should be the little voice that says, "go with the simplest explaination, as long as it conforms to the evidence provided".

[Sappho]

Regardless... what is it that makes you think that the "someone made it" answer is better than the "it just happened, the only thing that makes this reality special is that there is someone around to observe it" version?

Faith.

Because at the heart of honest philosophical expoloration, there should be the little voice that says, "go with the simplest explaination, as long as it conforms to the evidence provided".

Very good point boxy. However the explanation is beyond our comprehension, yet to be discovered or too easy to disbelieve.

I say that there is a creator, the known nature of which is extremely limited. But how did that creator come into being?
Others say that the universe was not created. But from where do the laws of physics come?

[Outlaw Yogi]

I have given you as precise a definition as can ever be given. These gods are not found in religious texts. I do not know their nature. I do not know their purpose. I do not know if they have intervened in human business. But, for the sake of the argument I believe that they exist.

Didn't comment because it delves into the realm of superstition, but I thought this may have been about what Hindu pandits and early Buddhists call 'Preta' = "hungry ghost" in sanskrit

No. This has nothing to do with Buddhism of Hinduism... both of which have religious texts ascribed to them. And there is absolutely nothing superstitious about my belief either.... I've made no ominous claims.

I didn't imply that you were superstitious, just that the somewhat vague description sounded like that ascribed to preta in sanskrit texts.
Just because a relatively educated individual is aware of a particular concept for which they have not discovered documentation of, doesn't mean such texts don't exist.
People think up and invent things spontaneously all the time, but often such things were thought of millenia ago.
Bet people re-invent Heron of Alexandria's gadget/contraptions every other day.

I'll vary that just a bit... obviously something in the nature of gods is their capacity to create. These gods I speak of then, or possibly only one of them, were/was responsible for the creation of the multiverse. But that is not to say that they created the multiverse as we understand it now, rather they gave to the void the physical principles upon which existence relies. These gods are geeks of mathematical proportions.

This concept sounds like 'Vishwa' .. a theme where the universe itself is considered/regarded an intelligent entity. Differs from the Christo - ID theory/belief in that it includes/encompasses evolution, as opposed to a design geek for every organism.

I have tried to get a definition of Vishwa, but every attempt just refers to Hindu philosophy and the 10 foundation beliefs.

Might have to spell it 'Visva' and use a Colonge Sanskrit to English translation dictionary.
In simple terms Vishwa means 'universe/universal' but in Vedic/yogic doctrine and dogma its regarded as an intelligent but unemotional entity allowing existence to take form, known as 'kara'.
Don't know if such explanation/interpretation is available online ... well not in simplified or anglisised layman's terms anyway. Might have to infiltrate a yogic cult to access such beliefs.
For example trippy hippies and new age healers or psuedo yogis with their hand in your pocket often waffle on about 'chakras' (spinning wheel of energy in sanskrit) and never seem to make the connection that chakras in the subtle body are in corresponding positions of nerve plexuses within the physical body.

And as I've already said, this has nothing to do with things thus far described in religious texts. .

How do you know such ideas don't appear in texts?
How can you know your ideas are completely original, and not be mentioned in texts you're not yet exposed to?

The Creator outside of creation aquarium analogy is like a couple of sci-fi shows I've seen. An old Doctor Who episode comes to mind.

[Sappho]

And as I've already said, this has nothing to do with things thus far described in religious texts. .

How do you know such ideas don't appear in texts?
How can you know your ideas are completely original, and not be mentioned in texts you're not yet exposed to?

Because if there was such a religious text, it would be less than a page in length and would simply say that there is a multiverse creator of which we know nothing beyond an appreciation of the mathematical prowess required of such a creation that we, and not necessarily the creator, exist within.

All text based religions have their roots in animism. Even Abraham's God, the most popular of all gods, can be a talking tree on fire without burning. Animism civilized and moralized the believers through stories which became those religious text we know of today. Yet where are those talking trees now? Where are the fantastical gods and demons of Asia now? Where are the goat gods, bull gods, war gods now? Why have they stopped their excessive interventions? God knows we could do with a bit of their intervention. Abraham's God for example did nothing to prepare us the the moral quandaries of the biotech age. Is it adultery to be artifically inseminated with another man's sperm for example? Or, how much medical intervention is too much medical intervention? And again, when does the omission of medical intervention become murder? On this and many other moral questions, Abraham's God is silent.

My creator is not so unreliable. It merely is that it is. It did nothing more than bring into effect the laws of the multiverse that it may exist. I couldn't even tell you if It intended to create conscious beings. All I can say is that it exists definitely outside of the multiverse and is shit hot at maths and physics... compared to humans that is.

The Creator outside of creation aquarium analogy is like a couple of sci-fi shows I've seen. An old Doctor Who episode comes to mind.

My fav is Q from Startrek. In books it would be AC from Asimov's short story 'The Last Question'.

Here's that short story here... it's pretty cool.
http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html

[AiA in Atlanta]

I'll be nice, I promise. I dig the dude.

So, AiA, what kinda god you packin' there?

A couple of quotes come to mind Swami:

I suggest that the new physics has simply discovered the one dimensional interpenetration of its own level (nonsentient mass/energy). While this is an important discovery, it cannot be equated with the extraordinary phenomenon of multidimensional interpenetration described by the mystics. We saw that Hinduism, as only one example, has an incredibly complex and profound theory of how the ultimate realm generates the causal, which in turn generates the subtle, which creates the mind, out of which comes the fleshy world and, at the very bottom, the physical plane. Physics has told us all sorts of significant things about that last level. Of its predecessors, it can say nothing (without turning itself into biology, psychology, or religion). To put it crudely, the study of physics is on the first floor, describing the interactions of its elements; the mystics are on the sixth floor describing the interaction of all six floors.

- Ken Wilber

Agree or disagree with the new paradigm(s), one conclusion unmistakably emerges; it makes ample room for spirit. Either way, modern science is no longer denying spirit. And that is epochal."

- Ken Wilber

[Outlaw Yogi]

And as I've already said, this has nothing to do with things thus far described in religious texts. .

How do you know such ideas don't appear in texts?
How can you know your ideas are completely original, and not be mentioned in texts you're not yet exposed to?

Because if there was such a religious text, it would be less than a page in length and would simply say that there is a multiverse creator of which we know nothing beyond an appreciation of the mathematical prowess required of such a creation that we, and not necessarily the creator, exist within.

Shaivan hindus would equate this as/to Shiva (or Siva), who supposedly creates (and later destroys) universes [not to be confused with Brahma who creates the world], but never incarnates/lives within his creation .. although he is said to materialise occasionally. Vaisnavan hindus forward Vishnu (or Visnu) as creator, but your explanation precludes him as he is said to incarnate/live (10 times) within his creation.
2nd EDIT ADDITION - Should qualify that if animism validates exclusion, hinduism's out because all the major diety characters have close relationships with various animals ... Shiva's best mate is a white bull named Nandi (Nadi), Vishnu rides a swan, Brahma is bovine, Ganesh/has a baby elephant's head and a rides a rat, Krishna rides a peacock, Durga rides a tiger, Kali rides a lion and so on ect ect.

All text based religions have their roots in animism. Even Abraham's God, the most popular of all gods, can be a talking tree on fire without burning. Animism civilized and moralized the believers through stories which became those religious text we know of today. Yet where are those talking trees now? Where are the fantastical gods and demons of Asia now? Where are the goat gods, bull gods, war gods now? Why have they stopped their excessive interventions? God knows we could do with a bit of their intervention. Abraham's God for example did nothing to prepare us the the moral quandaries of the biotech age. Is it adultery to be artifically inseminated with another man's sperm for example? Or, how much medical intervention is too much medical intervention? And again, when does the omission of medical intervention become murder? On this and many other moral questions, Abraham's God is silent.

To me Abraham's God (Yaweh later mistranslated to Jahovah) is the god of psychotic schizophrenics.
This god supposedly told Abraham to kill his own son.
The goat and bull gods are still where they always were, in the sky. They are 2 of the 12 diefied characters/creatures within the Helenistic 'Precession of the equinoxes' which posits religious concepts/belief or spiritual consciousness changes every 2165 years as Earth faces the next Zodiac character in the sky at sunrise.
The Zodiac characters supposedly symbolise the dominant religion within each 2156 year time frame.
For example the current dominant religion (Christianity) is symbolised by a fish because we are in the age of Pisces.
The tribal war god of the Hebrews, Yaweh is still worshiped as Yaweh, Jahovah, and Allah.
IMO Abraham's God only intervenes in matters offensive to self righteous schizophrenics.

My creator is not so unreliable. It merely is that it is. It did nothing more than bring into effect the laws of the multiverse that it may exist. I couldn't even tell you if It intended to create conscious beings. All I can say is that it exists definitely outside of the multiverse and is shit hot at maths and physics... compared to humans that is.

Still sounds like/similar to the Vishwa concept, although within it is said to be the cosmic energy 'prana' and spiritual life force 'adi shakti'

The Creator outside of creation aquarium analogy is like a couple of sci-fi shows I've seen. An old Doctor Who episode comes to mind.

My fav is Q from Startrek. In books it would be AC from Asimov's short story 'The Last Question'.

Here's that short story here... it's pretty cool.

http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html

Thanx

EDIT ADDITION - Forgot to mention many insights within hindu texts (Vedas), Rig veda in particular came via Soma induced altered states ... soma is a drink made from toxic red mushies known as fli-agara ... untill seeing at my bush hideaway about a month ago I had only ever seen them in cold places.
What I find fascinating about Vedic texts compared to others is some of the authors seemed to be aware of the electrical nature of practically everything we know and experience. One verse from Bhagavad Gita which I like using when debating animal rights veg nazis/vegan fundamentalists and pacifist queirdos banging on about sacredness of life, is ...

"The spark that is eternal in all things is eternal in them all, so thou need not grieve o Ajuna for that which cannot die"
Krishna to Ajuna circa 3,100 BC.

[Sappho]

Shaivan hindus would equate this as/to Shiva (or Siva), who supposedly creates (and later destroys) universes [not to be confused with Brahma who creates the world], but never incarnates/lives within his creation .. although he is said to materialise occasionally. Vaisnavan hindus forward Vishnu (or Visnu) as creator, but your explanation precludes him as he is said to incarnate/live (10 times) within his creation.
2nd EDIT ADDITION - Should qualify that if animism validates exclusion, hinduism's out because all the major diety characters have close relationships with various animals ... Shiva's best mate is a white bull named Nandi (Nadi), Vishnu rides a swan, Brahma is bovine, Ganesh/has a baby elephant's head and a rides a rat, Krishna rides a peacock, Durga rides a tiger, Kali rides a lion and so on ect ect.

Hmmm.... I don't think my god/s equate with the Hindu's Shiva. There is no evidence that my god/s destroys universes. There is only evidence of my god/s having creating the physics which caused existence. I see no further intervention thereafter. More than that, we do not have a full understanding of the physics my god/s created, so we cannot say whether it will result in this universe being destroyed. One hypothesis based on our continuing expansion, is that the universe will cool as energy is converted, loose momentum and so come to a stand still.

To me Abraham's God (Yaweh later mistranslated to Jahovah) is the god of psychotic schizophrenics.
This god supposedly told Abraham to kill his own son.
The goat and bull gods are still where they always were, in the sky. They are 2 of the 12 diefied characters/creatures within the Helenistic 'Precession of the equinoxes' which posits religious concepts/belief or spiritual consciousness changes every 2165 years as Earth faces the next Zodiac character in the sky at sunrise.
The Zodiac characters supposedly symbolise the dominant religion within each 2156 year time frame.
For example the current dominant religion (Christianity) is symbolised by a fish because we are in the age of Pisces.
The tribal war god of the Hebrews, Yaweh is still worshiped as Yaweh, Jahovah, and Allah.
IMO Abraham's God only intervenes in matters offensive to self righteous schizophrenics.

It is said (love that term) that the end, judgement and new beginning which Jesus spoke of corresponds to the end of Pisces and beginning of Aquarius. That date, gotta love this, is said to be 21/12/2012... which coincides with all the doom-saying from other sources. It's absolutely deliciousness. Tickles my fancy no end. At that time, it is said, that mankind will control its own destiny. The orb of influence (my friend's term and rather delicious too) has already begun apparently.

My creator is not so unreliable. It merely is that it is. It did nothing more than bring into effect the laws of the multiverse that it may exist. I couldn't even tell you if It intended to create conscious beings. All I can say is that it exists definitely outside of the multiverse and is shit hot at maths and physics... compared to humans that is.

Still sounds like/similar to the Vishwa concept, although within it is said to be the cosmic energy 'prana' and spiritual life force 'adi shakti'

And therefore cannot be a Vishwa concept, since Vishwa incorporates more in its definition than does my take on things.

EDIT ADDITION - Forgot to mention many insights within hindu texts (Vedas), Rig veda in particular came via Soma induced altered states ... soma is a drink made from toxic red mushies known as fli-agara ... untill seeing at my bush hideaway about a month ago I had only ever seen them in cold places.

That's not uncommon. Abraham was wandering in the desert with no food or water which as we know from the American Indians and science, leads to hallucinations and 'revelations'. Sharmic traditions are known for their use of mind altering substances to cross the boundaries between the corporeal and spiritual realms.

What I find fascinating about Vedic texts compared to others is some of the authors seemed to be aware of the electrical nature of practically everything we know and experience. One verse from Bhagavad Gita which I like using when debating animal rights veg nazis/vegan fundamentalists and pacifist queirdos banging on about sacredness of life, is ...

"The spark that is eternal in all things is eternal in them all, so thou need not grieve o Ajuna for that which cannot die"
Krishna to Ajuna circa 3,100 BC.

What I find fascinating about Vedic texts is that the myth foundations are found in European, Persian and Mediterranean myth foundations also adding support to the commonality of the Aryan races and the mass migration which separated them.

[Outlaw Yogi]

One hypothesis based on our continuing expansion, is that the universe will cool as energy is converted, loose momentum and so come to a stand still.

My take on 'Precession of the Equinoxes' posits, rather than expansion from a singular big bang, that virtually never ending big bangs are at the core of most galaxies, and always have been and always will be ... as in no beginning and no end.

The goat and bull gods are still where they always were, in the sky. They are 2 of the 12 diefied characters/creatures within the Helenistic 'Precession of the equinoxes' which posits religious concepts/belief or spiritual consciousness changes every 2165 years as Earth faces the next Zodiac character in the sky at sunrise.
The Zodiac characters supposedly symbolise the dominant religion within each 2156 year time frame.
For example the current dominant religion (Christianity) is symbolised by a fish because we are in the age of Pisces.

It is said (love that term) that the end, judgement and new beginning which Jesus spoke of corresponds to the end of Pisces and beginning of Aquarius.

Said by who?

That date, gotta love this, is said to be 21/12/2012... which coincides with all the doom-saying from other sources. It's absolutely deliciousness. Tickles my fancy no end. At that time, it is said, that mankind will control its own destiny. The orb of influence (my friend's term and rather delicious too) has already begun apparently.

That's the date the age of Pisces supposedly ends.

That's not uncommon. Abraham was wandering in the desert with no food or water which as we know from the American Indians and science, leads to hallucinations and 'revelations'.

I mentioned this very point concerning so called enlightened individuals and/or messianic characters visions and/or epiphanies with regard to bouts of psychosis ... eg Jesus communicating with Satan in the wilderness (desert) or Guatamo Siddhartha [Buddha] being confronted by demons from within his own psyche.

What I find fascinating about Vedic texts compared to others is some of the authors seemed to be aware of the electrical nature of practically everything we know and experience. One verse from Bhagavad Gita which I like using when debating animal rights veg nazis/vegan fundamentalists and pacifist queirdos banging on about sacredness of life, is ...

"The spark that is eternal in all things is eternal in them all, so thou need not grieve o Ajuna for that which cannot die"
Krishna to Ajuna circa 3,100 BC.

What I find fascinating about Vedic texts is that the myth foundations are found in European, Persian and Mediterranean myth foundations also adding support to the commonality of the Aryan races and the mass migration which separated them.

That, plus that virtually every religious/spiritual/metaphysical concept in any major or minor belief system on the planet is covered/mentioned in Vedas somewhere. I've also noticed sanskrit words and syllables in Russian, German and Croat languages.
The vedas themselves don't refer to aryans as a race per se, but says they are 'seekers' of spiritual knowledge (Vidya).
While I'm somewhat dismissive of some mainstream western archeology, latest findings suggest the Indus valley/Hindu Kush invasion came from Turkmenistan rather than Iran, although the authors claim to have originated in Siberia.

[Outlaw Yogi]

Share what you have with others.

– Mon Jan 3, 11:29 pm ET

MASSAPEQUA PARK, N.Y. – Health officials say hundreds of people may have been exposed to hepatitis A while receiving communion on Christmas Day at a church on Long Island, N.Y.

The Nassau County Health Department said Monday it will offer vaccines this week to anyone who received communion at the church Dec. 25. A church spokesman told Newsday that the investigation was ongoing and that he could not identify who might have transmitted the virus.

Symptoms may include fever, fatigue, poor appetite, nausea, stomach pain, dark-colored urine and jaundice. The disease is rarely fatal and most people recover in a few weeks without any complications.