87% take up the NBN

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IQSRLOW
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Re: 87% take up the NBN

Post by IQSRLOW » Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:39 am

From one of the lefts very own. Even they are questioning it because liebor seem to be unable to do anything without seriously fucking it up
NBN secrecy creates the impression the government has something to hide
Ross Gittins November 22, 2010
I'M STARTING to get a really bad feeling about Labor's plan for a national broadband network. The more it resists subjecting the plan to scrutiny, the more you suspect it's got something to hide.
I fear Julia Gillard is digging herself in deeper on a characteristically grandiose scheme her swaggering predecessor announced without thought to its daunting implications, when she should be looking for ways to scale the project down without too much loss of face.
The obvious way to start that process would have been to accede to calls for the Productivity Commission to conduct a full cost-benefit analysis.
But as each day passes, the issue is becoming more politicised, with too much of the government's ego riding on pretending the plan is without blemish.
The case for a thorough cost-benefit analysis needs no stronger argument than that, at $43 billion, this is the most expensive piece of infrastructure this country has seen.
It's true the plan has a lot of attractions. Top of the list is the structural separation of Telstra's network from its retail business so its retail competitors get fair access to the network. This is something the Howard government should have seen to before it privatised Telstra.
I accept that, if city people are going to continue cross-subsidising the bush - as they will; it's clearly the electorate's ''revealed preference'' - there's no more sensible way to do it than ensuring the bush has access to high quality telecommunications, thereby doing what we can to reduce the tyranny of distance.
I don't have an in-principle objection to a network with natural-monopoly characteristics being owned publicly rather than privately, provided governments don't use their powers to shore-up or abuse that monopoly in a way any private owner would and should be prevented from doing.
And I admire the government's consciousness of the need for us to be ready to adopt and exploit the opportunities for benefit that future technological advances will make possible.
The Productivity Commission could be required to ensure its cost-benefit analysis ranged far wider than a mere commercial evaluation, taking account of present and potential ''social'' benefits (''positive externalities'') and acknowledging those whose value it can't quantify.
But there are three aspects of the plan that worry me. They're things economists are trained to see, but to which non-economists are often oblivious.
The first is the mentality that says, we've got a lot of messy and inadequate telecom arrangements at present, so let's scrap 'em all and start afresh. Copper wire to the home - make Telstra turn it off. Telstra and Optus's existing rival optical fibre-coaxial cables to many capital-city homes - close 'em down.
This Ruddish approach would be fine if resources were infinite, or if getting a brand spanking new broadband network was the Australian public's only desire. But resources are finite, both sides of politics have sworn to eliminate all government debt and we have an infrastructure backlog as long as your arm. In two words: opportunity cost.
Second is the idea of building a gold-plated broadband network up to eight times faster than any present application needs, so we're ready for anything that may come along one day.
If you think that shows vision and foresight, you're innocent of ''the time value of money''. Every dollar you spend now rather than later comes at an extra cost: the interest you have to pay between now and when you start using the idle capacity.
True, it's a false economy to build something today without allowing for reasonable growth in your use of the item. But there comes a point where allowing for more growth than you're likely to see in ages becomes a waste of money. Private businesses that do this - like home owners who overcapitalise their properties - do their dough. Government businesses survive either by over-charging their customers or falling back on the taxpayer.
The final worry is the way that - notwithstanding the break-up of Telstra - the plan involves deliberately reducing competition from other networks in the telecommunications market. Why's that a good idea?
And why would the government plan to do it? Because it knows its network will be hugely over-engineered and the only way of charging consumers the high prices needed to recoup that excess cost is to turn broadband into a monopoly.
If Gillard had any sense of self-preservation she'd be using the Productivity Commission to get herself off a nasty hook.

Leftwinger
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Re: 87% take up the NBN

Post by Leftwinger » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:09 am

I often wonder why NBN detractors who are addicted to internet usage use the internet to heap shit on the idea of much better internet. You would think they'd be struck by the stupid irony in their position but I guess some of them are so thick that you could smash a brick over their head to no avail.

The arguments against the NBN are couched in terms of cost-benefit analysies and business cases but the real motivation at the core looks quite transparent - it's about party politics and ideology. They don't believe that government should be overly involved in the provision of new, large scale public goods.

Jovial Monk

Re: 87% take up the NBN

Post by Jovial Monk » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:27 am

Even less than that LW, they just don’t want the NBN to succeed because it is a Labor Party initiative. Pathetic!

Deepshit quoted a CEDA survey. Even that Liberal think tank in its self-selecting survey had 27% wanting the so-called $43Bn spend to go ahead!

Deepshit said the money should be spent on hospitals, must have been asleep when the Health Reform spending was announced. More like a coma really. Public transport he squeaked: hmm remember that heavy infrastructure spending on ports roads and rail? Deep coma was it?

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IQSRLOW
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Re: 87% take up the NBN

Post by IQSRLOW » Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:25 am

but the real motivation at the core looks quite transparent - it's about party politics and ideology
lol... That's hilarious coming from the queen of ideologues. I guess it never crossed your mind that some people don't want a useless and incompetent govt presiding over a scheme they have no hope of implementing efficiently of cost effectively

shouldn't you be somewhere masturbating to Hugo Chavez?

Jovial Monk

Re: 87% take up the NBN

Post by Jovial Monk » Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:52 am

As I always knew, Mr X will support the Separation of Telstra Bill:
INDEPENDENT Senator Nick Xenophon has agreed to receive key information on the NBN after eleventh hour efforts by the government to win his support.

Senator Xenophon met for the second time yesterday with Prime Minister Julia Gillard in a last ditch attempt by the government to win his support for legislation critical to the $43 billion National Broadband Network.

A number of meetings were held last night which lasted for several hours, keeping alive the prospect that legislation to split the wholesale and retail arms of Telstra may be passed by the Senate.

The Gillard government needs to win over Senator Xenophon and Family First Senator Steve Fielding in order to pass the legislation, having already secured the support of the Greens.

As a result of these discussions, Senator Xenophon has agreed to receive information containing a number of key figures from the 400-page business plan which the government will not publicly release until December.

Senator Xenophon had previously declined a confidential briefing
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nationa ... 5959968817

So Nick will get some figures that may change due to the ACCC decision handed down 1/12 and then will support the separation of Telstra Bill. This should be done anyway regardless of the NBN!

But Nick is the centre of attention for a while, esp the centre of media attention so he is happy. He will drag this out till the vote tomorrow I think because Thu evening Parliament rises for a couple months and a few months after that he is just a number, no longer able to hold up legislation. Wonder if he will actually wring some concessions re pokies from Julia? Nick has not made one iota of difference to poker machines the entire time he has been in Parliament, first in SA then the Senate.

She has held meetings with the Christian Clown Fielding as well. There is a man suffering relevance deprivation :yellow

Truffles has stated the Opposition will let the Structural Separation Bill through if the govt refers the NBN to the Productivity Commission for a CBA. Assuming Truffles is actually speaking for Tone they would still want to delay the NBN while the PC goes through a meaningless exercise. You just cannot do a CBA on a 60 year project!

I have mentioned holograms—as a way of 3D TV, as a way of attending conferences, lectures etc etc remotely and interacting privately with various of the people there. This needs the NBN of course for the sheer bandwidth and its symmetry BUT when would this be achieved? 5 years, 10, 20? So how the fuck can you work out the benefits? Cost: doable, benefits, social; everyone gets decent internet speeds at last; educational; educational resources can be more widely shared, even to the very smallest school, boosts education and cuts costs. Health, especially for those in the regions huge saving of time, driving: Pollution and AGW; lessened by much more telecommuting, regions gain population and so services, outer suburbs stop spreading their blight. Even Deepshit could work this out.

But what of the really radical things? Fuck knows is the only honest reply. RIP CBA!

Jovial Monk

Re: 87% take up the NBN

Post by Jovial Monk » Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:49 pm

Nick must be getting the media attention he craves:
Xenophon forces backdown on NBN business plan

The Government's lynchpin election promise of a National Broadband Network has inched closer to fruition today, after a deal was struck with independent Senator Nick Xenophon.

Senator Xenophon had been refusing to back NBN legislation which would enable the separation of Telstra's wholesale and retail arms.

He wanted the NBN business case released before promising his vote in the Upper House.

Now Senator Xenophon says the Government has agreed to release a summary of the business plan ahead of a vote.

Senator Xenophon has also secured a briefing from NBN [C]o head Mike Quigley and a joint parliamentary committee will oversee the network's rollout.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010 ... ion=justin

So instead of the whole report subject to a 2 week NDA a summary will be released. Hmmm I think Conroy and Julia saw this coming, Nick wanting one last blast of attention and that is why they didn’t offer to release a summary before. So Nick has achieved nothing but media attention, again!

Fielding might be more of a problem, perhaps, but I doubt he is really opposed, he can probably be just patted on the head and he will roll over.

Jovial Monk

Re: 87% take up the NBN

Post by Jovial Monk » Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:09 pm

Summary of business case here.

Data transfers Jun 2010, G/b (I guess for the average user:)
9.2 fixed line
1.2 wireless
Based on take up and speed usage growth assumptions, NBN Co. anticipates being able to reduce real prices for all products and nominal prices for all products, except the basic service offering, while maintaining an internal rate of return above the Government long-term bond rate.
The reuse of suitable Telstra infrastructure, including pits, ducts, conduits, backhaul fibre and space in Telstra exchanges, by NBN Co as it starts to rollout its new network – avoiding unnecessary infrastructure duplication.

As a result, NBN Co’s forecast of the estimated capex cost to build the NBN in a deal scenario is $35.7 billion compared to $37.4 billion in a no deal scenario.
Irrespective of what amounts NBN Co decides to borrow, total funding requirements will begin to decline in 2021 (approximately when the rollout is complete).
NBN Co. expects to pay cash dividends, beginning in 2020, which in the aggregate would repay the government’s entire investment by 2034
Paid of by 2034 without privatising.
NBN Co. expects to pay cash dividends, beginning in 2020, which in the aggregate would repay the government’s entire investment by 2034
Looks like 2020 is the 'break even point' for the NBN Co
The equity requirement from Government based on our current plan is $27.1bn.
As a result, NBN Co’s forecast of the estimated capex cost to build the NBN in a deal scenario is $35.7 billion compared to $37.4 billion in a no deal scenario.
Based on take up and speed usage growth assumptions, NBN Co. anticipates being able to reduce real prices for all products and nominal prices for all products, except the basic service offering, while maintaining an internal rate of return above the Government long-term bond rate.

Guest

Re: 87% take up the NBN

Post by Guest » Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:44 pm

How OLD will you be in 2034?

Ned Kelly

Re: 87% take up the NBN

Post by Ned Kelly » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:22 pm

Guest wrote:How OLD will you be in 2034?
He'll be dead as I will. But in that Year, those who are alive will be enjoying the benefits of the decisions made now. How old will you be Coward?

Jovial Monk

Re: 87% take up the NBN

Post by Jovial Monk » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:44 pm

I am progeny of a long lived family so will be alive, kicking and compos mentis in 2034!

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