87% take up the NBN

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Jovial Monk

Re: 87% take up the NBN

Post by Jovial Monk » Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:44 am

Ummmm, OO never said $6000 to wire up a house. The OO floated the $3000 figure.

The Daily Telegraph did mention the $6000 figure. Apparently Pies Akerman is a real technology/networking guru! Who’d a thunk it! Image

$3000 would be maybe for a hotel if it wired every room with Cat6. Image

In reality:
1. $500 would pay for a sparky to wire 4-6 rooms with Cat 6 cable and RJ45 patches—very high bandwidth option!

2. Mostly, one Cat6 cable to the lounge or family room for Ultra High Definition TV if the house is subscribing to 100mbps offer, one of the cheaper options for other rooms

3. Cheap options include;

3.1. Ethernet over powerlines. A $50 plug for each socket.

3.2. Use of the now redundant internal phone lines. One RJ 45 plug wired up by a sparky. $200 should get a few done!

3.3. For 25mbps offers a $50 wireless router is sufficient

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Super Nova
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Re: 87% take up the NBN

Post by Super Nova » Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:17 am

Jovial Monk wrote:A CBA really isn’t appropriate.

If it comes out full of praise the Opposition will just say “the assumptions underlying the CBA were wrong” and they would just be assumptions. The very existence of the NBN will change the conditions in which the NBN will operate.

Let the NBN Co present their business case and use that.

FO has a life of 60 years. So in 2070-78 they will have to decide to replace or rip up or keep using the FO cables—they may be good for more than 60 years. So we don’t even know the full lifecycle costs of the NBN!

In 2070 society may have been radically changed, with populations on other planets or it may be a society struggling in a post peak oil, energy deprived, poor and half barbarian. WTF can we guess now about the 2070s?

We know the copper network needs replacing, that wireless and copper are neither symmetric nor capable of high bandwidth, that copper and wireless both suffer attenuation with distance from tower/exchange etc. So we rewire with cheaper, faster, symmetric FO that suffers negligible attenuation with distance (it is used in undersea cables to the US etc) and can carry immense bandwidth. It will cost about $26Bn, has a roughly 90% takeup rate and is supported by Telstra.

Even in Tassie there is a 50% acceptance rate and takeup of NBN internet will increase as contracts with copper based ISPs expire and FO contracts with RSPs can be taken up.)

WTF else do you want to know SN?
WTF else do you want to know SN?
I already buy into all of that. that is why i agree with you that it is a good thing... this technology.

however it is always prudent to do a Cost Benefit Analysis. Why not do one? As you have said the benefits are clear. let's have a CBA that supports the case. A CBA also help the implementor ensure they deliver the value promised. It is just good practice and a sound part of major programme management. If you don't know the benefits (tangable and intangable) how with the programme managers know they are delivery the benefits. All they will be doing is delivery technology.... we deliver technolgy for a benefit.

What more do I need to know. i want to know the CBA and how they wil ensure the benefits are realised.

My concern is that they implement this part o the project without enabling the real ecconomic benefit. Imagine a NBN with great big pipes to an internet infrastructre that can not handle the volume. The great NBN will be choked by it's weakest link by way of an example. If datacentres don't have the right infrastructure... they can not meet the data demands. If our links to the rest of the world are too small.... they can not handle the traffic. To provide the benefits... it is more than just this roll-out. Is the counterparts to delivering the benefits planned and will they be in place in time for us.

A CBA may indicate that more needs to be done to realise the benefits is just one part of the argument for one to be done and knowing what the benefits are to be and the cost of them helps manage the implementation to realise those benefits. programme Management 1 oh 1.
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Jovial Monk

Re: 87% take up the NBN

Post by Jovial Monk » Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:54 am

Links to the rest of the world via optical fibre cable already installed or about to be installed about 25terabit/second.

The rest that you mention is not a CBA but a business case. NBN Co is releasing that about now. There is just too much uncertainty:
To highlight the nature of the problem – imagine doing a CBA on the post-war Post Master General’s roll out of what became the bulk of our existing copper telephony network. PMG spent 42 million pound to roll that out – about 10 billion in today’s dollars.

If a CBA was undertaken on the project back then, one of the benefits that could not have been included in the mix was the internet because it was yet to be invented (let alone fax, or basic data exchange before that etc) – even though if you have a DSL connection, there’s a good chance you are still using the original PMG cable system to read this very post. Even with the application of a standard discount rate applied to the value of the economic activity that the PMG cable side of the net has generated over the last 15 years in Australia (and fax and basic data exchange before that), it would still have been a not insignificant benefit in any original CBA done on the project if the creation of the internet and its economic consequences could have been foreseen at the time.
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/20 ... f-the-nbn/

Telecommuting will be one of the real benefits of the NBN IMHO. BUT the rate of takeup of telecommuting depends on things like the petrol price and the (possible) introduction of state congestion taxes. Want to guess the petrol price on 26 Oct 2020 SN? This benefit of the NBN may have to wait for like 10 years because the major western economies are embracing policies—austerity—that will see full-blown Depression rule the US/UK/Europe for a decade, maybe more, keeping petrol prices lower. Still want to guess that petrol price SN?

When petrol was at $1.50/L there was a slight move to public transport. With the NBN in place a move in the petrol price to $1.50-2.00 will see a major shift to telecommuting. Care to predict when that will be, SN?

When telecommuting becomes widespread will our cities still grow like now, with outer suburbs with few facilities a accepted feature or will people move to regions where real estate is cheaper, lifestyles far superior and crime much lower? What will be the costs and benefits of that SN? Stuff like fast rail links back to the capital will be needed—care to do a CBA on rail right now SN? Could one of the main benefits of the NBN be reduced pollution, reduced GHG emissions, reduced road toll?

Will cloud computing take off because the NBN makes it possible or will security concerns mean it is never much more than an idea? This is something in the immediate future and we don’t yet know if the cloud will be reality or not. Care to do a CBA on cloud computing right now SN?

This stuff is like a couple of years away as areas start to get wired with FO. What benefits or costs will there be in 10, 20 years?

What you are really asking SN is an implementation study and a business case. The former has been done and the latter is being released right now.

One of the casualties of the NBN could be newspapers. Even now, quality blogs like Grog’s Gamut or some of the Crikey blogs (Pollytics and Poll Bludger) are better value than the MSM—on Poll Bludger it was worked out that the Gretch email was fake even before the Daily Telegraph published the faked email on its front page. FTA TV too will at least change, migrating to the net. Costs and benefits? Maybe reducing GHG emissions is the big benefit of the NBN?

Mobile telephony will take a big hit as it cannot compete with video phone calls via the NBN and is much, much more expensive. How do we quantify now the health benefits of that, when cancer linked to EM radiation is hotly disputed? (and disguised IMHO.)

Implementation study:
http://www.dbcde.gov.au/broadband/natio ... tion_study
Last edited by Jovial Monk on Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:44 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Super Nova
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Re: 87% take up the NBN

Post by Super Nova » Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:09 am

When telecommuting becomes widespread will our cities still grow like now, with outer suburbs with few facilities a accepted feature or will people move to regions where real estate is cheaper, lifestyles far superior and crime much lower? What will be the costs and benefits of that SN? Stuff like fast rail links back to the capital will be needed—care to do a CBA on rail right now SN?

Will cloud computing take off because the NBN makes it possible or will security concerns mean it is never much more than an idea? This is something in the immediate future and we don’t yet know if the cloud will be reality or not. Care to do a CBA on cloud computing right now SN?

This stuff is like a couple of years away as areas start to get wired with FO. What benefits or costs will there be in 10, 20 years?

What you are really asking SN is an implementation study and a business case. The former has been done and the latter is being released right now.
Good response. You do know your topic well.
SN is an implementation study and a business case
I agree. However in all business cases I have ever seen they include a cost benefit analysis. They also include return on investment calculations ....etc. Business cases always talk about benefits. So should i assume (leaving the semantics aside) that the business case should cover off the CBA issue even if they are not calling part of it that.

I look forward to the publication of the business case and we can both go through it in some detail. Shall we get into the detail when it is released. (Should be fun).

When you see it can you post a link to it here.

Cheers
SN
Always remember what you post, send or do on the internet is not private and you are responsible.

Jovial Monk

Re: 87% take up the NBN

Post by Jovial Monk » Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:27 am

Yes but businesses have simple, clear cut costs (opportunity costs of competing projects, no messy social costs) and an expectation of benefits expressed as a discounted cash flow. No messy social impacts to worry about. Westfield has all its experience in building shopping centres to draw on to do a CBA—the Bu Stats will give a good idea of population size and trends.

Yet shopping centres may be a victim of the NBN! Online shopping may actually take off! I would die before buyign food on line but people do it now Image

All I have discussed is just projecting current trends, what will be the killer app for the NBN? Internet was it for the CAN for the NBN it will be . . . .?

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Super Nova
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Re: 87% take up the NBN

Post by Super Nova » Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:59 pm

I think it will be networked computers that (are wireless talking to NBN) can speak and have voice recognition that will integrate into the application in the WWW. Like Holy or the computer on Star Trek. We are only 10 to 20 years away from interactive computers that we can talk to and get reasonable responses from for the masses.

They will need access to the whole of the information available to humanity. It will be the network that will make it work with clever robot like applications locally. Network for information. Local smarts for the robot brains for thinking.
Always remember what you post, send or do on the internet is not private and you are responsible.

Jovial Monk

Re: 87% take up the NBN

Post by Jovial Monk » Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:19 pm

It might be more cars that drive themselves—hardly any accidents, doesn’t matter if you get into your car blind drunk, wires down each road guiding the robot cars, part of the NBN, getting traffic reports, reports of blockages etc. Why buy a car? Just rent one, takes you home and returns to a local or central hub.

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IQSRLOW
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Re: 87% take up the NBN

Post by IQSRLOW » Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:30 pm

Jovial Monk wrote:It might be more cars that drive themselves—hardly any accidents, doesn’t matter if you get into your car blind drunk, wires down each road guiding the robot cars, part of the NBN, getting traffic reports, reports of blockages etc. Why buy a car? Just rent one, takes you home and returns to a local or central hub.
:roll:

Jovial Monk

Re: 87% take up the NBN

Post by Jovial Monk » Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:40 pm

Oh man! This is doing the rounds of the twitterverse today. Poor Tone, poor Truffles!
Murdoch slams slow broadband

RUPERT Murdoch yesterday condemned the quality of Australia's broadband services as a disgrace, warning the nation would be left behind unless the federal Government and Telstra spent billions to increase download speeds.

The News Corporation chairman and chief executive told shareholders of his Australian arm in Adelaide that high speed access to the internet needed to be increased to levels seen throughout Asia and the US.

"When you have broadband - real broadband, not the type they're talking about here - where you get, say, 20Mbps of data into your home, it changes everything," he said.

"People then spend a lot of time with their laptops and computers. In Australia we only have a couple of million people on broadband and they don't even get 1Mb."

"I think it's a disgrace."

Between 50 and 70 per cent of homes in the US had access to broadband, Mr Murdoch said.

He said the Government and Telstra should be spending "$10 billion or $12 billion on it to reach every town in Australia; they do it in Japan, they do it in South Korea, we should be able to do it here. We are being left behind and we will pay for it."
This was Old Rupe Nov 16, 2006: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/busines ... 1112529377

Well, $26Bn for the complete rewire that is needed is pretty close to Old Rupe’s figure.

Wonder when [IF!] the OO will reverse its stupid anti-NBN stance?

And just think, if the Rodent or Tip had heeded the message and rolled out their own NBN they might still be in govt now! My gut hurts from laughing!

Jovial Monk

Re: 87% take up the NBN

Post by Jovial Monk » Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:05 pm

Apparently Townsville is now up to 57%. Wonder what it will be next week? LOL

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