Liars, Lunatics or Liaisons

[AiA in Atlanta]

"Are all great spiritual teachers of history liars, lunatics, or liaisons to an objectively real and attainable awakened state of human consciousness?"

Before you answer, consider this:


If you answer "they're all liars," what larger worldview is supported by this belief? Is there a grand conspiracy out there with shady individuals inventing false stories to gain social advantage of the naive?

If you think they are nuts, then are these glimpses into reality a psychotic episode, mental breakdowns? Answering "Yes!" here supports a worldview in which "sanity" is defined by adherence to the mental norm and the social status quo.

What if enlightenment is real? If you answered "Yes" then why make anything more important than awakening to enlightenment?

[J.W. Frogen]

Maybe it is a choice between Liars, Lunatics or Lesions?

I suspect the Dalai Lama has suffered some kind of head trauma. Have you ever read his calenders?

"Happiness is good unhappiness is bad."

[boxy]

You can't really lump them all in together. Some fall in to all your categories.

... why make anything more important than awakening to enlightenment?

Is enlightenment everything?

Or a means to deal with life?

[AiA in Atlanta]

You can't really lump them all in together. Some fall in to all your categories.

... why make anything more important than awakening to enlightenment?

Is enlightenment everything?

Or a means to deal with life?

This question is a nod to C.S. Lewis' "trilemma:" Was Jesus a liar, lunatic or Lord and God as Christians claim?

"Are all great spiritual teachers of history liars, lunatics, or liaisons to an objectively real and attainable awakened state of human consciousness?"

Here the question is broadened beyond confines of any specific religion or dogma to include not only founders of religions but anyone who has broken through to a higher consciousness.

I think Frogen meant "lesbian" instead of "lesion."

[J.W. Frogen]

Lesbians are guud eaten.

[boxy]

How do you know when someone has "broken through to a higher consciousness"? Other than them just saying they have (and can teach you if you become their deciple)...

As to Jesus, seems like a good natured lunatic to me

[Super Nova]

How do you know when someone has "broken through to a higher consciousness"? Other than them just saying they have (and can teach you if you become their deciple)...

As to Jesus, seems like a good natured lunatic to me

Was he the lunatic or those that followed him.

I think those that wrote a book many years after his death were absolutely brilliant.

Got Rome to convert to Christianity. They got their enemy to convert to a way of thinking that was theirs. that is a master stroke.
Got a large part of the world to think of an historical figure, that we have no independant evidence of ever existing, to effect the entire world.
Got a new religion that came later (Islam) to recognise him as a prophet.
They used this new religion to gain political control of most of Europe as times.
Got most of Europe to enjoy smoking the opiate of the masses by preaching damnation to create fear for control.
on the good side... it did lead to a western world of greater freedom when we all got sick of this rubbish and started separating church and state.
The writings the acts that this person was to have said and done do show a good man doing good things. It is the good things that make society work.

[AiA in Atlanta]

How do you know when someone has "broken through to a higher consciousness"? Other than them just saying they have (and can teach you if you become their deciple)...

As to Jesus, seems like a good natured lunatic to me

Levels of consciousness has been established by researchers over the decades. See Spiral Dynamics and the work of Ken Wilber for more.

Years ago when I first lived in Japan and did zazen with a local priest I got an interest in listening to those who might, just might have broken through. I have heard everyone from the Dalai Lama to Eckart Tolle to Bryon Katie to Wayne Dyer to ... Eckart Tolle and Byron Katie stand out. Others are interesting enough but don't seem to have made a noticeable transformation. Have seen J. Krishnamurti on dvd numerous times and he is another one that stands out. Am not so sure that transformation is teachable per se ... yes, there is a path on can follow but there are no guarantees and there are those that followed no path at all and seemingly did nothing and enlightenment just happened.

[J.W. Frogen]

As to Jesus, seems like a good natured lunatic to me

What better way to spend a Sunday than with a good natured lunatic?

[boxy]

How do you know when someone has "broken through to a higher consciousness"? Other than them just saying they have (and can teach you if you become their deciple)...

Levels of consciousness has been established by researchers over the decades. See Spiral Dynamics and the work of Ken Wilber for more.

That Spiral Dynamics™ seems to simply describe categories of "enlightenment" in a fairly arbitrary, and very mundane, way. And it doesn't require "spirituality" to obtain the "higher" levels in their system, which simply seems to be "the more you think about others, the more complete a human you are". I would suggest that most people who "break through" to such enlightenment do so without even trying, or even following a "spiritual leader". These memes are installed by experience, and through mimicking role-models (family and friends).