Gillard cabinet leak damages her rep.

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IQSRLOW
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Re: Gillard cabinet leak damages her rep.

Post by IQSRLOW » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:07 am

Mattus wrote:
boxy wrote:. Science and stats shows that blanket vaccination clearly delivers the greatest good for the greatest number by a long margin.
Rubbish.
I do agree. The "fair and balanced" often results in giving airtime to whackjobs just because the disagree with something. However it just gets my back up when people start using "science and stats" to support their position when, by your own admission, you haven't reviewed the science or the stats of some vaccines.
So do you think the airtime that you have been given here gets your back up given your initial statement was not qualified?

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boxy
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Re: Gillard cabinet leak damages her rep.

Post by boxy » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:10 am

:oops:

Yes. You're right.

I have read/listened to a fair bit on it though, and applied my patented bullshite detector ;) So many issues are fogged by extremists, who are pushed to the fore, as in this vaccination issue.

Why do we vaccinate for polio, if there isn't a chance of it making a comeback? Is it just bureaucratic inertia?
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Super Nova
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Re: Gillard cabinet leak damages her rep.

Post by Super Nova » Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:13 am

boxy wrote::oops:

Why do we vaccinate for polio, if there isn't a chance of it making a comeback? Is it just bureaucratic inertia?
Boxy,

Not true because there is a chance it will come back. Here in Europe there have been cases recently and it is in population that have low imunisation levels. It has not been fully eradicated from the world, not a 100%. Until it really is, vacinations must continue.

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SN
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IQSRLOW
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Re: Gillard cabinet leak damages her rep.

Post by IQSRLOW » Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:21 am

Super Nova wrote:
boxy wrote::oops:

Why do we vaccinate for polio, if there isn't a chance of it making a comeback? Is it just bureaucratic inertia?
Boxy,

Not true because there is a chance it will come back. Here in Europe there have been cases recently and it is in population that have low imunisation levels. It has not been fully eradicated from the world, not a 100%. Until it really is, vacinations must continue.

Cheers,
SN
Pssst...I think he was being facetious

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boxy
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Re: Gillard cabinet leak damages her rep.

Post by boxy » Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:30 am

Mattus wrote:The only cases of polio in Australia in th last 15 years have been caused by the vaccine itself.
In 2005 Australia is supposed to have replaced the oral (live) vaccine, with an inactivated one that doesn't cause the paralisis associated with the oral vaccine (even though it was at a much lower rate than via the disease itself). And polio seems to still be active in parts of the world that have lower vaccination rates than Australia. Stopping now could see a re-introduction of the disease here which, in a population with a significant number of unvaccinated members, could reestablish, causing many deaths and disabilities.
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boxy
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Re: Gillard cabinet leak damages her rep.

Post by boxy » Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:32 am

IQSRLOW wrote:Pssst...I think he was being facetious
No, not that time.
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HIGHERBEAM
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Re: Gillard cabinet leak damages her rep.

Post by HIGHERBEAM » Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:29 am

boxy wrote:
Mattus wrote:The only cases of polio in Australia in th last 15 years have been caused by the vaccine itself.
In 2005 Australia is supposed to have replaced the oral (live) vaccine, with an inactivated one that doesn't cause the paralisis associated with the oral vaccine (even though it was at a much lower rate than via the disease itself). And polio seems to still be active in parts of the world that have lower vaccination rates than Australia. Stopping now could see a re-introduction of the disease here which, in a population with a significant number of unvaccinated members, could reestablish, causing many deaths and disabilities.
We agree on something Poxy,you're out and about too I see,all better now,scientist are on the verge of a flu vaccine that will eliminate flu forever,so do we stop it after a few years I think not :mrgreen:
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Mattus
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Re: Gillard cabinet leak damages her rep.

Post by Mattus » Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:23 am

Globally there are 1600 cases of polio not caused by the vaccine per year. In Australia there are none since 1991. Globally there are 90,000 cases of vaccine induced polio every year. Yes in Australia we adopted the inactivated vaccines in 2005 (a mere 50 years after it first became available, and 15 years after the disease it prevents was eradicated from the Western Hemisphere). But, nevermind the bureocratic intertia that saw this lightning reflex response to evidence. While the IPV doesn't cause infection with polio, there are a host of other adverse effects (including anaphylaxis and death) is still much higher than the risk of polio, both worldwide and in Australia.

One might speculate that in the future, should we abandon vaccination, the stats might come around to supporting the practice again. But in the mean time we're paralysing 90,000 folks a year against that potential future risk. You can make up your own mind about that, but I think debate is reasonable, and people might learn some of the science and stats they assume agree with them.
Last edited by Mattus on Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mattus
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Re: Gillard cabinet leak damages her rep.

Post by Mattus » Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:31 am

HIGHERBEAM wrote:scientist are on the verge of a flu vaccine that will eliminate flu forever
Really.
We are are we?

Please, tip us all off which particular scientists have solved this old chestnut so that I might invest heavily in their stock. Meanwhile the trivalent flu vaccine is recalled because, oh that's right it was doing more harm than good. :roll:
so do we stop it after a few years I think not :mrgreen:
If it's killing more people then it is saving, yes of course we will stop using it. That's what we just did with both trivalent and h1n1. It's what we do with all medicines.
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Sappho

Re: Gillard cabinet leak damages her rep.

Post by Sappho » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:11 pm

boxy wrote:
Sappho wrote: I think we shall go down as being the 'Shallow Era'.
Perhaps we are individualistic, rather than shallow? Running with an ideological herd is passé.
Extreme individualism is profoundly selfish and therefore shallow. And I agree that we are individualistic... too individualistic. It is nothing for our society to think only of ourselves and outsource, that which was once our communal duty, to strangers on a minimal wage with casual hours and little if any vocational interest in the work they do... childcare and aged care are two points in question.

But I'm not suggesting that society as individuals are to blame in any meaningful way. Society has just been going through the loops as they are presented to them. We are not encouraged to think: Just to be: Just to do it. A Nike reality.
I think the problem is not with the generation, but rather with information overload, the salesmanship of pseudo-science and over commercialisation of the mainstream media. There are big issues out there, that people potentially care very deeply about, however they are bombarded with 'alternative views' these days, and are expected (mainly by themselves) to evaluate the evidence themselves, even if thoroughly unqualified to do so. We are in an era where trained experts are no more trusted than loudmouth vested interests (either commercial or ideological) with attractive alternatives, who are given equal air time from the media, which is driven by market forces, and knows that debate sells better, and for longer, than stating facts.
But it is not information Boxy that is overloading us, rather, it is data and our incapacity to convert that data, through thinking into meaning information. We need to learn how to think. We have lost the art. And with all the pseudo spoon feeding that goes on now day... we will never regain that art.

These forums are full of non thinking people who demand data as evidence of what they could know themselves if they would but think for a moment. For example, I could say that a child will be naughty where it is that they are not getting the attention they need. Another will demand the psychological study that proves that, rather than reflect. It is easier to say prove it, than it is to think for ourselves. We appeal to authority instead of our own intellectual ability.

The media are supposedly an authority on matters pertaining to politics... they have percentages, they have data streams, they have worms that tell us of their authority. But the media are no better than we at thinking... their percentages, data streams and worms are derived from those who work the data and computers. The media are as fickle and individualistic as the rest. Their attention span is as fleeting as their individualistic whims.

No surprise then that political campaigns pander to this shallow nature.

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