Are we heading for war with China?

[Nom De Plume]

Thanks Tex and, yes, welcome NoN.

BEIJING (Reuters) - An internal Chinese report warns that Beijing faces a rising wave of hostility in the wake of the coronavirus outbreak that could tip relations with the United States into confrontation, people familiar with the paper told Reuters.

The report, presented early last month by the Ministry of State Security to top Beijing leaders including President Xi Jinping, concluded that global anti-China sentiment is at its highest since the 1989 Tiananmen Square crackdown, the sources said.

As a result, Beijing faces a wave of anti-China sentiment led by the United States in the aftermath of the pandemic and needs to be prepared in a worst-case scenario for armed confrontation between the two global powers, according to people familiar with the report’s content, who declined to be identified given the sensitivity of the matter.

The report was drawn up by the China Institutes of Contemporary International Relations (CICIR), a think tank affiliated with the Ministry of State Security, China’s top intelligence body.

Reuters has not seen the briefing paper, but it was described by people who had direct knowledge of its findings.

“I don’t have relevant information,” the Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson’s office said in a statement responding to questions from Reuters on the report.

China’s Ministry of State Security has no public contact details and could not be reached for comment.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN22G19C

I think China would prefer to go to war than admit any wrongdoing. Like all totalitarian regimes their people are expendable.

So good to see you here North... I enjoyed our philosophical discussion, back in the day... Welcome!

[northofnorth]

Hi All

Thanks for the welcome.

I think this is going to be an interesting forum!

Cheers

[northofnorth]

Thanks Tex and, yes, welcome NoN.

BEIJING (Reuters) - An internal Chinese report warns that Beijing faces a rising wave of hostility in the wake of the coronavirus outbreak that could tip relations with the United States into confrontation, people familiar with the paper told Reuters.

The report, presented early last month by the Ministry of State Security to top Beijing leaders including President Xi Jinping, concluded that global anti-China sentiment is at its highest since the 1989 Tiananmen Square crackdown, the sources said.

As a result, Beijing faces a wave of anti-China sentiment led by the United States in the aftermath of the pandemic and needs to be prepared in a worst-case scenario for armed confrontation between the two global powers, according to people familiar with the report’s content, who declined to be identified given the sensitivity of the matter.

The report was drawn up by the China Institutes of Contemporary International Relations (CICIR), a think tank affiliated with the Ministry of State Security, China’s top intelligence body.

Reuters has not seen the briefing paper, but it was described by people who had direct knowledge of its findings.

“I don’t have relevant information,” the Chinese foreign ministry spokesperson’s office said in a statement responding to questions from Reuters on the report.

China’s Ministry of State Security has no public contact details and could not be reached for comment.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN22G19C

I think China would prefer to go to war than admit any wrongdoing. Like all totalitarian regimes their people are expendable.

Well... Let's see how those internal forces inside China play out! The army has to hold together... It was fine in Tienanmen Square when all they had to do was crush their own people under tanks and fire on protesters and soldiers indiscriminately...

The world was not plunged into a global crisis as a result of it... And we all soon forgot our outrage, if not the memory...

Notwithstanding that even the memory was quickly and forcibly erased from the Chinese memory and psyche... Why would that be, I wonder... The CCP's mortal fear of their own people is the only likely reason.

The CCP fears its own people many times greater than external forces.

[brian ross]

The People's Liberation Army didn't "hold together" all that well over Tienanmen Square. The troops first sent in to implement the Communist Party's will were basically disarmed by the protestors. They were herded back onto their trucks and sent packing. The Party was forced to send in troops from surrounding provinces, who had not been "infected" with the protestors' view of the world. Those troops opened fire. They drove their APCs and Tanks over the protestors.

NorthofNorth get your facts straight.

[The4thEstate]

My concern is the absolute hypocrisy of the USA.
They have military bases all over the world.
Trump says he wants to bring the troops home....
Bullshit.
What other country on the planet has military bases everywhere.
The USA in its lust for power and world domination has attempted to influence the world
simply by its worldwide presence...
The Spratly Islands conundrum is a classic example of the USA meddling simply because it can....
Im not defending China.
Im simply saying that China is now competing with the USA as a world power.
China has its silk belt road initiative which we all know about.
The simple question has to be asked...why is the USA so interested in meddling in the South China Sea.
Don't forget the name of the region....the South China Sea...it is not American turf.
America objects to the development of the Spratly Islands by China simply because it allows China to monitor
US military bases in the Philippines...(on the Scarborough Shoal) China also has surface to air missiles located on Woody Island.
China has obviously militarised the islands.....
The USA doesn't like that....
On a yearly basis $1.2 trillion of US traded goods pass through the South China Sea.
The US want it to remain as part of international waters.
In other words, the USA doesn't like being usurped...
In an action in the Hague the UN backed Court of Arbitration decided that China had acted illegally.
China ignored this ruling stating it had no right...no jurisdiction....
The USA has taken it upon themselves as the sheriff of the world to enforce that ruling.
What right has the USA to enforce that ruling.

I really don't understand what you're arguing here. China is claiming the South China Sea as its own -- but up to now, it's always been considered international waters.

You acknowledge as much here: "The US want it to remain as part of international waters."

Bingo. But then you unfathomably say this: "In other words, the USA doesn't like being usurped."

Huh? How would the U.S. be usurped if China took control of the South China Sea when the area is currently regarded as international waters? Your statement would only make sense if America had previously claimed the South China Sea as its own.

Let's look at this in reverse: If the U.S. suddenly claimed the entire Pacific Ocean as American territorial waters, and Australia strongly objected, would it then make sense for me to say, "Sheesh, Australia just doesn't like being usurped. Why don't you Aussies mind your own business? You have no real interest in the Pacific Ocean."

This point is amplified by the fact that you asked a question and then answered it yourself. To wit:

1. "Why is the USA so interested in meddling in the South China Sea?"
2. "On a yearly basis $1.2 trillion of US traded goods pass through the South China Sea."

Look, I'm no international maritime expert, but just as a guess I'd say that Statement 2 is the answer to Question 1, or at least an answer.

Really, if you seriously believe the U.S. is acting solely out of its "lust for power and world domination," then what motives would you assign China -- benevolence and altruism? Again, America isn't trying to claim the South China Sea as sovereign U.S. waters ... yet China is doing just that for itself. I'm afraid I don't see the parallel.

Finally, it's downright silly to say "Don't forget the name" as justification for why the U.S. should defer to China in the South China Sea. By that logic, you must also believe that India owns the Indian Ocean.

[billy the kid]

My concern is the absolute hypocrisy of the USA.
They have military bases all over the world.
Trump says he wants to bring the troops home....
Bullshit.
What other country on the planet has military bases everywhere.
The USA in its lust for power and world domination has attempted to influence the world
simply by its worldwide presence...
The Spratly Islands conundrum is a classic example of the USA meddling simply because it can....
Im not defending China.
Im simply saying that China is now competing with the USA as a world power.
China has its silk belt road initiative which we all know about.
The simple question has to be asked...why is the USA so interested in meddling in the South China Sea.
Don't forget the name of the region....the South China Sea...it is not American turf.
America objects to the development of the Spratly Islands by China simply because it allows China to monitor
US military bases in the Philippines...(on the Scarborough Shoal) China also has surface to air missiles located on Woody Island.
China has obviously militarised the islands.....
The USA doesn't like that....
On a yearly basis $1.2 trillion of US traded goods pass through the South China Sea.
The US want it to remain as part of international waters.
In other words, the USA doesn't like being usurped...
In an action in the Hague the UN backed Court of Arbitration decided that China had acted illegally.
China ignored this ruling stating it had no right...no jurisdiction....
The USA has taken it upon themselves as the sheriff of the world to enforce that ruling.
What right has the USA to enforce that ruling.

I really don't understand what you're arguing here. China is claiming the South China Sea as its own -- but up to now, it's always been considered international waters.

You acknowledge as much here: "The US want it to remain as part of international waters."

Bingo. But then you unfathomably say this: "In other words, the USA doesn't like being usurped."

Huh? How would the U.S. be usurped if China took control of the South China Sea when the area is currently regarded as international waters? Your statement would only make sense if America had previously claimed the South China Sea as its own.

Let's look at this in reverse: If the U.S. suddenly claimed the entire Pacific Ocean as American territorial waters, and Australia strongly objected, would it then make sense for me to say, "Sheesh, Australia just doesn't like being usurped. Why don't you Aussies mind your own business? You have no real interest in the Pacific Ocean."

This point is amplified by the fact that you asked a question and then answered it yourself. To wit:

1. "Why is the USA so interested in meddling in the South China Sea?"
2. "On a yearly basis $1.2 trillion of US traded goods pass through the South China Sea."

Look, I'm no international maritime expert, but just as a guess I'd say that Statement 2 is the answer to Question 1, or at least an answer.

Really, if you seriously believe the U.S. is acting solely out of its "lust for power and world domination," then what motives would you assign China -- benevolence and altruism? Again, America isn't trying to claim the South China Sea as sovereign U.S. waters ... yet China is doing just that for itself. I'm afraid I don't see the parallel.

Finally, it's downright silly to say "Don't forget the name" as justification for why the U.S. should defer to China in the South China Sea. By that logic, you must also believe that India owns the Indian Ocean.

Ive learnt over time...that its pretty pointless arguing the toss with an American...after all...they're always right.....

[The4thEstate]

China lacks (at the present moment and into the foreseeable future) the ability to threaten Australia.

The New York Times wrote this in 2018 under the headline of "With Ships and Missiles, China Is Ready to Challenge U.S. Navy in Pacific":
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/29/worl ... cific.html

A modernization program focused on naval and missile forces has shifted the balance of power in the Pacific in ways the United States and its allies are only beginning to digest.

While China lags in projecting firepower on a global scale, it can now challenge American military supremacy in the places that matter most to it: the waters around Taiwan and in the disputed South China Sea.

That means a growing section of the Pacific Ocean — where the United States has operated unchallenged since the naval battles of World War II — is once again contested territory, with Chinese warships and aircraft regularly bumping up against those of the United States and its allies.

So China is becoming militarized enough to challenge the U.S. Navy in the Pacific ... but it still lacks the ability to threaten Australia?

Nice Maginot Line you got there, pal!

[The4thEstate]

Ive learnt over time...that its pretty pointless arguing the toss with an American...after all...they're always right.....

What kind of cop-out is that?

If you think I'm wrong, tell me why you think I'm wrong.

[billy the kid]

Ive learnt over time...that its pretty pointless arguing the toss with an American...after all...they're always right.....

What kind of cop-out is that?

If you think I'm wrong, tell me why you think I'm wrong.

Would the USA be upset if say the Philippines converted the Spratly Islands into military bases...
or maybe Vietnam...of course not...no problems there....but China...that's a different story....
We have to stop China at all costs.....
Of course youre wrong....tell me about the thousands of military bases all over the world...
Why are they necessary.....tell about the necessity for the USA to be at war with some nation,
somewhere since the 1940s....
What gives the USA the right to enforce the ruling of the Hague....is the USA the unofficial
enforcer of these rulings...but only when it suits them....
I suppose you could always imposes sanctions on China....like every other country on the
planet that doesn't kowtow to the USA....

[brian ross]

China lacks (at the present moment and into the foreseeable future) the ability to threaten Australia.

The New York Times wrote this in 2018 under the headline of "With Ships and Missiles, China Is Ready to Challenge U.S. Navy in Pacific":
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/29/worl ... cific.html

A modernization program focused on naval and missile forces has shifted the balance of power in the Pacific in ways the United States and its allies are only beginning to digest.

While China lags in projecting firepower on a global scale, it can now challenge American military supremacy in the places that matter most to it: the waters around Taiwan and in the disputed South China Sea.

That means a growing section of the Pacific Ocean — where the United States has operated unchallenged since the naval battles of World War II — is once again contested territory, with Chinese warships and aircraft regularly bumping up against those of the United States and its allies.

So China is becoming militarized enough to challenge the U.S. Navy in the Pacific ... but it still lacks the ability to threaten Australia?

Nice Maginot Line you got there, pal!

The Washington Times likes to stir things up. I know most of the academics who study this stuff. None of the serious ones are worried in the slightest. China can threaten the US Navy in the Western Pacific. It cannot threaten Australia. It is not a
Maginot line, it is the air-sea gap that surrounds Australia. Look up the Dibb Report from 1986 to have it explained to you 4E. I doubt you'd even listen to what I have to say 'cause you've shown no willingness in the past to do so.