US and Iran

[Bogan]

Mortdooley wrote

Kuwait was stealing the natural resources of their neighbor and got caught.

I have never heard that one before until Brian came up with it a week ago. I didn't ask Brian to validate it even though it sounds like complete crap to me. Kuwait was so small it was more like an oil company with a passport office than a real country. It was a perfect target for a hostile takeover, although not by the usual way of secretly buying a majority of shares. They already possesed oceans of oil and they would have to be crazy to provoke a war mongering psychopath like Saddam Hussein.

Mortdooley wrote

Saddam didn't want the whole country.
Just the area used to steal his oil! A negotiated withdrawal with just compensation for stolen oil would have been the better outcome. No reason to topple his government after 9/11 since he had nothing to do with it!

You probably believe in multiculturalism and Human Induced Global Warming if you are dumb enough to believe that crap. The US and it's reliable allies (exclude Australia who's "army" is a joke) told Saddam in no uncertain terms to get out of Kuwait or they would throw him out. He did not negotiate for reparations for any alleged "theft", he declared Kuwait a part of Iraq and started digging in. He was convinced that the west consisted of Brian Ross and Mortdooley clones who would be too gutless to chuck him out. He even bragged about how the US had got out of Vietnam after only 62,500 dead. Iraq had lost around 50,000 men in every one of his eight attacks on the Fao peninsular, and it did not worry him one bit. THAT was the sort of psychopath he was.

Saddam Hussein really did think he could go to war with the USA and win. He thought that all he had to do was dig in with his huge and very well equipped army, and the yanks would be too scared to attack. And if they did attack, it would be a stalemate like the Iran-Iraq war, and the yanks would go home after their own populations rebelled over the mounting casualty list, just like in Vietnam. He would then be a hero to the Arab and Muslim world.

For God's sake go to the library and pick up a book. THAT is why I can run rings around you and Brian. I enjoy reading this stuff.

Mortdooley wrote

Ghaddafi had not been a problem for the West since Reagan, any internal problems were their own to deal with.

You mean when the USA bombed him with F-111's and carrier planes and damned near killed him? Which scared the ever lovin shit out of him? Thank you for bringing that up so that I could prove to you that standing up to tyrants can have a positive outcome.

Mortdooley wrote

Taking out the Leaders of these countries didn't make the World a safer place.

Doing nothing doesn't work either. What the correct course of action is can be hard to determine. Nobody wants a war. But the world learned in 1938-39 that if you appease totalitarian tyrants with their expansionist ambitions, you are just putting off the trouble they will cause when they are strong enough to attack you. The US army in 1939 was a joke, just like the Australian "army" today is a joke. The USA in 1939 had a total of two tanks in it's entire army. After being bombed into the last war, the USA is a lot more realistic about standing up to tyrants today. It will not allow a war mongering psychopath like Saddam Hussein to get stronger by invading other oil rich countries and threaten the world's oil supply. Oil is blood to advanced societies.

Mortdolley wrote

And yes, I do know history and spending American lives and treasure in those countries doesn't serve the interests of the USA!

You don't know history anywhere near well enough. One reason why the USA is pulling back from being the world's policeman is because of the endless criticisms of it's actions on behalf of people like you and Brian Ross who never cease attacking them, no matter what they do. It is bad enough losing thousands of your best young men in battle but much worse when the people you are protecting have no gratitude for your efforts. The yanks are beginning to realise just how unreliable it's 'allies' are and that was one of the reasons why Trump won the election. He promised to pull the USA out of overseas conflicts on behalf of an ungrateful world that never stops criticising them. But they are on the horns of a dilemma with Iran.

The Iranian population does not want war any more than the populations of Japan or Germany wanted war. But Japan and Germany were totalitarian governments who's rulers definitely did want a war. And in totalitarian states, the population does what it is told. The mullahs want war for the same reasons why Hitler, Galtieri, Tojo, Mussolini, and Saddam Hussein wanted a war. To deflect internal unrest and rally the population behind them by engaging in a war with an external enemy. That is why the mullahs are provoking the USA. Instead of criticising the US, you should be congratulating Trump on his forebearance for not allowing the mullahs to provoke him into a war. So far.

[Mortdooley]

He was convinced that the west consisted of Brian Ross and Mortdooley clones who would be too gutless to chuck him out.

Up to this point I have never agreed with Brian on anything, I'm sure he will find you as amusing as I have.

I never saw the benefit or removing one dictator while giving monetary aid to others because the political winds have changed. Had his people rose up and removed him and even executed him it would not have concerned me at all. I opposed nation building in Iraq and Afghanistan but if the US determined a country was harboring Terrorists I have no problem with violating their sovereignty and borders. There is an old saying "you were not my enemy until you invaded my country", that is how you make new enemies and we don't need any more.

[Bogan]

Then I am a bit worried about your data crunching methods, because you seem to look at dictators in a black and white view.

Some dictators are quite intelligent and dedicated to the welfare of their people. One such dictator was Lee Kuan Yu of Singapore. A highly intelligent man, Lee was originally a Marxist who was smart enough to figure out that socialism was crap. After becoming the dictator of Singapore he set about making his tiny and resource poor nation into one of the world's richest and most successful countries. He was so respected in Asia that South Korea once asked the Singaporean government if they could purchase him.

Another was Josef Broz Tito of Yugoslavia. Tito was a communist dictator who had very good relations with the west, especially with Britain. After WW2, he refused Stalin's demand that Yugoslavia join the Warsaw Pact. When the Soviets massed on his borders to invade Yugoslavia, Tito got on a plane to Moscow and marched right up to Stalin. He got right in Stalin's face and shouted "You invade my country, and I will give you twenty years of war!"

Stalin did not invade. During WW2, Tito's partisans had pinned down 15 German and Italian divisions and given them a very rough time, while in North Africa the combined British, Australian, New Zealand, south African, and Indian armies were hard pressed stopping two German and two Italian divisions. The last thing Stalin wanted was for Tito to do to him what he had done with Hitler.

But Stalin was not through with Tito yet. He sent assassination teams to Yugoslavia to assassinate Tito. When Tito found out, he sent to Stalin what is probably the most famous "diplomatic" message in history.

Stalin. Stop sending men to my country to kill me. We have captured two, one with a rifle and one with a bomb. If you do not stop trying to kill me, I will send my man to Moscow to kill you. I will not have to send another.

After the Soviets gave up trying to intimidate Tito, he started the Non Aligned Movement for any county that did not want to be seen as either pro west or pro Soviet. He never caused any trouble outside of his country and instituted a moderate form of socialism where farmers who had tilled their own farms for generations were not required to collectivise them. He kept Yugoslavia together as a single state and he would execute anybody who tried to divide it on ethnic or religious grounds, even his own friends. When he died, Yugoslavia fell apart and a million people died.

[brian ross]

Actually, there were initially two German divisions and six Italian divisons which increased to four German and twelve Italian divisions in North Africa, Bogan, facing the Allied army initially of only two understrength British, which increased in the end to twelve British and four American divisions. The Germans were commanded by Rommel - undoubtedly an able if difficult commander (from the German perspective) who was reading the daily reports from the American embassy in Cairo which allowed him to know exactly where the British forces were and what their strengths were. Once his SIGINT unit was captured by the Australian 9 Division at Tel el Eisa, Rommel was no longer able to do that and when coupled with the ULTRA decypts of German codes, he was reduced to being just an ordinary commander on the battlefield.

[Bogan]

According to that absolutely amazing book "Eastern Approaches" (Fitzroy Mclean.), it was exactly as I said at the time that McLean was parachuted into Yugoslavia. Fitzroy McLean was a friend of Ian Fleming, and Fleming modelled his "James Bond" on McLean. Fitzroy McLean was also a friend of SAS founder David Stirling, and in the book, he accompanied Stirling on a raid to Benghazi.

During the darkest days of WW2, with British forces either in retreat or just hanging on everywhere, Churchill became aware that the Yugoslavs seemed to be holding down an inordinate number of German and Italian divisions. But it was not certain whether these reports were true as the Yugoslav Army had been totally destroyed by the Wehrmacht in days. The reports stated that the leader of the "partisan" army was one "Tito", who was thought to be a beautiful woman. Churchill asked McLean to parachute into Yugoslavia to ascertain whether or not the reports were true, and whether or not "Tito's" partisan army was worth assisting.

Fitzroy linked up with Tito and the pair really hit it off. Mclean was able to report back to Churchill that Tito's partisans were indeed very worthy of support, as at that time, the partisans were holding down 15 German divisions and Italian divisions while the British were only just holding off four.

If you would like to read a great book, "Eastern Approaches" is one of the best books I have ever read. Everyone I have loaned the book too has said the same thing.

Part one of the book is McLean's breathtaking adventures in the USSR at the time of Stalin's show trials (which McLean as a diplomat attended). He travels through Soviet Central Asia observing what he sees, followed around by the KGB (at that time the NKVD) who don't quite know what to do about him.

Part 2 involves his adventures with David Stirling and the SAS, as well as his own mission to kidnap a pro Nazi Iranian general in Iran who is trying to start a pro Nazi coup.

Part 3 Involves his parachute mission into Yugoslavia where he meets up with Tito and gets chased around Yugoslavia by the Wehrmacht, who are anxious to catch this British agent, who is a former diplomat, a member of the British Parliament, a Major (later general) , and a spy.

An amazing book with a lot of humour (as when Churchill askes McLean if he parachuted into Yugoslavia wearing his kilt.) McLean was the sort of Britisher who created the British Empire. A highly intelligent and adventurous gentleman who (as Churchill once quipped "The gentlest of men who ever cut throat or scuttled ship"). Amazing book.

[brian ross]

And the relevance of Eastern Approaches to the present problems with Iran is, exactly what, Bogan?

[Bogan]

I was replying to Mortdooley's premise that all dictators were bad, and pointed out that Tito's partisans were holding down 15 German and Italian divisions while the British Commonwealth Forces in North Africa were flat out holding down 4, when you piped up and disputed the number.

I refered you to Fitzroy McLean's famous book for verification, and as a courtesy to you, recommended the book to you. Your lack of courtesy in return is noted. Incidentally, on the Benghazi raid which Mclean took part in with David Stirling, the raid also included the legendary Paddy Mayne the only man in the British Army to get the DSO and three bars.

http://www.amazon.com/Paddy-Mayne-Col-B ... 0750939435

[brian ross]

So, it has no relevance at all then, I take it, Bogan?

[The Reboot]

So, it has no relevance at all then, I take it, Bogan?

And your snot nosed eye rolling adds to the discussion how?

[Bogan]

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