Whats the point?

[brian ross]

The Bible is full of misogyny - afterall it reflects the culture that created it:

An unmarried woman could be compelled to marry her rapist, as long as the rapist could pay the standard bride price and the woman’s father was comfortable with the marriage (Deuteronomy 22:28–29). Polygyny (a man having multiple wives at the same time) was not condemned, but was an accepted and legal custom (Deuteronomy 21:15–17; Genesis 4:19–24; and 2 Samuel 3:2–5). A woman’s religious vow could be nullified by her father or her husband (Numbers 30:3–15). And the assumption of the text is that the priesthood is all male (Leviticus 21). In short, within the legal literature of the Bible, women were not accorded the same status as men.

[1 Timothy 2] begins by stating that “men should pray” (and the word used here for men is andras, a gendered word that refers only to males) and then says “women should dress themselves modestly and decently” (vv. 8–9). So men are to pray, and women are to dress modestly. That’s quite a contrast. But there’s more: “Let a woman learn in silence and full submission. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to be silent” (vv. 11–12). The rationale: “For Adam was formed first, then Eve, and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor” (vv. 13–14). According to this text, women were to be silent in worship gatherings (and men were certainly not told to be silent), and the rationale for this mandate is that woman (Eve) was created second and sinned first. And the final blow is this: A woman “will be saved” (the future tense of the standard word for “be saved,” “be given salvation”) “through childbirth if she remains in faith and love and sanctification with modesty” (1 Timothy 2:15).

These are but a few of the Biblical misogynist instructions. They are the equal of the Q'ran's. Both Christians and Muslims largely ignore the instructions in their Holy Books nowadays, except for traditionalists and extremists. Today's modern society has moved on markedly from those days, thankfully, both Christian and Muslim. To characterise the majority viewpoint of Muslims as being the same as the traditional or extremists one is to ignore the same groups within Christianity...

Somehow I dont think too many ministers of religion would preach TODAY what you have quoted.
The instructions given verbally by muslim leaders TODAY would be at odds with those given by
Ministers of religions. I really cant see the point in comparing biblical quotes from YESTERYEAR, to those practices taught TODAY
by muslim leaders.................
BTW I sense from your quotes and general posting that at one stage you may have been well versed in theology...Were you at any stage a minister of religion, and then packed it in....just wondering............

Ah, and you know this, how, Billy? Been to any Mosques lately, Mmmm? No, I don't think you've even met a single Muslim in your entire life, have you?

Mosques, like Churches reflect what the congregation wants to hear, as well as what the Imam/Priest wants to preach. Mosques are actually more democratically controlled, unlike most Churches. There is no hierarchy in Islam - were you aware of that? Churches OTOH rely upon direction "from above" and have bishops/arch-bishops/Cardninals/etc. dictating theology and doctrine. Islam is much more individualistic as well, compared to Christianity.

Oh, and invariably as one Muslim put it to me, the Imam is the most unworldly and more ignorant person in the congregation, compared to the majority of it's members. Why? 'cause the Imam doesn't need to "live in the real world," he just needs to learn the Q'ran.

You, like most Islamophobes, like to seize upon the worst aspects of Islam, rather than actually talking to ordinary, everyday, Muslims. You ignore the similarities between the Christianity and Islam, in favour of just slamming Islam. Christianity has learnt to live with modern soceity - yet you can still hear "fire and brimstone" preachers. Same in Islam. Just like the Christian preachers, the Muslim ones largely get ignored by most of their congregations. Funny that, hey?

Then you have a problem. You like to paint all Muslims as devout, as members of Daesh or the Taliban or other extremist groups, that they pray five times a day and attend Mosque daily. Yes, a tiny minority do but only approximately 40-45% of Muslims attend Mosque each week. Rather different to the Borg-like Muslims that you portray them as...

As to my personal career, no, I've never been a Minister or a Priest, Billy. I hold however, a DD - a Doctor of Divinity Degree. I studied it 'cause I find theology rather interesting and I treat the Bible as rather a poor history lesson, rift with propaganda. And I'm an agnostic as well. Funny that, hey?

So youre saying that muslims beat there wives....ok...thanx for that...
Forgot to ask...when and where did you graduate...is that another name for a degree in bullshitology.....

Oh, dearie, dearie, me. Erecting a strawman argument, Billy? Resorting to personal abuse? Poor, poor, you, bluster all 'round, right? Run along, Billy. If you don't want to be serious about this, bugger off.

[billy the kid]

The Bible is full of misogyny - afterall it reflects the culture that created it:

An unmarried woman could be compelled to marry her rapist, as long as the rapist could pay the standard bride price and the woman’s father was comfortable with the marriage (Deuteronomy 22:28–29). Polygyny (a man having multiple wives at the same time) was not condemned, but was an accepted and legal custom (Deuteronomy 21:15–17; Genesis 4:19–24; and 2 Samuel 3:2–5). A woman’s religious vow could be nullified by her father or her husband (Numbers 30:3–15). And the assumption of the text is that the priesthood is all male (Leviticus 21). In short, within the legal literature of the Bible, women were not accorded the same status as men.

[1 Timothy 2] begins by stating that “men should pray” (and the word used here for men is andras, a gendered word that refers only to males) and then says “women should dress themselves modestly and decently” (vv. 8–9). So men are to pray, and women are to dress modestly. That’s quite a contrast. But there’s more: “Let a woman learn in silence and full submission. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to be silent” (vv. 11–12). The rationale: “For Adam was formed first, then Eve, and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor” (vv. 13–14). According to this text, women were to be silent in worship gatherings (and men were certainly not told to be silent), and the rationale for this mandate is that woman (Eve) was created second and sinned first. And the final blow is this: A woman “will be saved” (the future tense of the standard word for “be saved,” “be given salvation”) “through childbirth if she remains in faith and love and sanctification with modesty” (1 Timothy 2:15).

These are but a few of the Biblical misogynist instructions. They are the equal of the Q'ran's. Both Christians and Muslims largely ignore the instructions in their Holy Books nowadays, except for traditionalists and extremists. Today's modern society has moved on markedly from those days, thankfully, both Christian and Muslim. To characterise the majority viewpoint of Muslims as being the same as the traditional or extremists one is to ignore the same groups within Christianity...

Somehow I dont think too many ministers of religion would preach TODAY what you have quoted.
The instructions given verbally by muslim leaders TODAY would be at odds with those given by
Ministers of religions. I really cant see the point in comparing biblical quotes from YESTERYEAR, to those practices taught TODAY
by muslim leaders.................
BTW I sense from your quotes and general posting that at one stage you may have been well versed in theology...Were you at any stage a minister of religion, and then packed it in....just wondering............

Ah, and you know this, how, Billy? Been to any Mosques lately, Mmmm? No, I don't think you've even met a single Muslim in your entire life, have you?

Mosques, like Churches reflect what the congregation wants to hear, as well as what the Imam/Priest wants to preach. Mosques are actually more democratically controlled, unlike most Churches. There is no hierarchy in Islam - were you aware of that? Churches OTOH rely upon direction "from above" and have bishops/arch-bishops/Cardninals/etc. dictating theology and doctrine. Islam is much more individualistic as well, compared to Christianity.

Oh, and invariably as one Muslim put it to me, the Imam is the most unworldly and more ignorant person in the congregation, compared to the majority of it's members. Why? 'cause the Imam doesn't need to "live in the real world," he just needs to learn the Q'ran.

You, like most Islamophobes, like to seize upon the worst aspects of Islam, rather than actually talking to ordinary, everyday, Muslims. You ignore the similarities between the Christianity and Islam, in favour of just slamming Islam. Christianity has learnt to live with modern soceity - yet you can still hear "fire and brimstone" preachers. Same in Islam. Just like the Christian preachers, the Muslim ones largely get ignored by most of their congregations. Funny that, hey?

Then you have a problem. You like to paint all Muslims as devout, as members of Daesh or the Taliban or other extremist groups, that they pray five times a day and attend Mosque daily. Yes, a tiny minority do but only approximately 40-45% of Muslims attend Mosque each week. Rather different to the Borg-like Muslims that you portray them as...

As to my personal career, no, I've never been a Minister or a Priest, Billy. I hold however, a DD - a Doctor of Divinity Degree. I studied it 'cause I find theology rather interesting and I treat the Bible as rather a poor history lesson, rift with propaganda. And I'm an agnostic as well. Funny that, hey?

So youre saying that muslims beat there wives....ok...thanx for that...
Forgot to ask...when and where did you graduate...is that another name for a degree in bullshitology.....

Oh, dearie, dearie, me. Erecting a strawman argument, Billy? Resorting to personal abuse? Poor, poor, you, bluster all 'round, right? Run along, Billy. If you don't want to be serious about this, bugger off.

You are such a hypocrite...you havent one of my questions.....you havent got the balls...
Where do you get the 45% of muslims dont attend mosques" bullshit....give me a link....no link...just more bullshit....

[billy the kid]

Somehow I dont think too many ministers of religion would preach TODAY what you have quoted.
The instructions given verbally by muslim leaders TODAY would be at odds with those given by
Ministers of religions. I really cant see the point in comparing biblical quotes from YESTERYEAR, to those practices taught TODAY
by muslim leaders.................
BTW I sense from your quotes and general posting that at one stage you may have been well versed in theology...Were you at any stage a minister of religion, and then packed it in....just wondering............

Ah, and you know this, how, Billy? Been to any Mosques lately, Mmmm? No, I don't think you've even met a single Muslim in your entire life, have you?

Mosques, like Churches reflect what the congregation wants to hear, as well as what the Imam/Priest wants to preach. Mosques are actually more democratically controlled, unlike most Churches. There is no hierarchy in Islam - were you aware of that? Churches OTOH rely upon direction "from above" and have bishops/arch-bishops/Cardninals/etc. dictating theology and doctrine. Islam is much more individualistic as well, compared to Christianity.

Oh, and invariably as one Muslim put it to me, the Imam is the most unworldly and more ignorant person in the congregation, compared to the majority of it's members. Why? 'cause the Imam doesn't need to "live in the real world," he just needs to learn the Q'ran.

You, like most Islamophobes, like to seize upon the worst aspects of Islam, rather than actually talking to ordinary, everyday, Muslims. You ignore the similarities between the Christianity and Islam, in favour of just slamming Islam. Christianity has learnt to live with modern soceity - yet you can still hear "fire and brimstone" preachers. Same in Islam. Just like the Christian preachers, the Muslim ones largely get ignored by most of their congregations. Funny that, hey?

Then you have a problem. You like to paint all Muslims as devout, as members of Daesh or the Taliban or other extremist groups, that they pray five times a day and attend Mosque daily. Yes, a tiny minority do but only approximately 40-45% of Muslims attend Mosque each week. Rather different to the Borg-like Muslims that you portray them as...

As to my personal career, no, I've never been a Minister or a Priest, Billy. I hold however, a DD - a Doctor of Divinity Degree. I studied it 'cause I find theology rather interesting and I treat the Bible as rather a poor history lesson, rift with propaganda. And I'm an agnostic as well. Funny that, hey?

So youre saying that muslims beat there wives....ok...thanx for that...
Forgot to ask...when and where did you graduate...is that another name for a degree in bullshitology.....

Oh, dearie, dearie, me. Erecting a strawman argument, Billy? Resorting to personal abuse? Poor, poor, you, bluster all 'round, right? Run along, Billy. If you don't want to be serious about this, bugger off.

You are such a hypocrite...you havent answered one of my questions.....you havent got the balls...
Where do you get the 45% of muslims dont attend mosques" bullshit....give me a link....no link...just more bullshit....

[brian ross]

The Bible is full of misogyny - afterall it reflects the culture that created it:

An unmarried woman could be compelled to marry her rapist, as long as the rapist could pay the standard bride price and the woman’s father was comfortable with the marriage (Deuteronomy 22:28–29). Polygyny (a man having multiple wives at the same time) was not condemned, but was an accepted and legal custom (Deuteronomy 21:15–17; Genesis 4:19–24; and 2 Samuel 3:2–5). A woman’s religious vow could be nullified by her father or her husband (Numbers 30:3–15). And the assumption of the text is that the priesthood is all male (Leviticus 21). In short, within the legal literature of the Bible, women were not accorded the same status as men.

[1 Timothy 2] begins by stating that “men should pray” (and the word used here for men is andras, a gendered word that refers only to males) and then says “women should dress themselves modestly and decently” (vv. 8–9). So men are to pray, and women are to dress modestly. That’s quite a contrast. But there’s more: “Let a woman learn in silence and full submission. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to be silent” (vv. 11–12). The rationale: “For Adam was formed first, then Eve, and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor” (vv. 13–14). According to this text, women were to be silent in worship gatherings (and men were certainly not told to be silent), and the rationale for this mandate is that woman (Eve) was created second and sinned first. And the final blow is this: A woman “will be saved” (the future tense of the standard word for “be saved,” “be given salvation”) “through childbirth if she remains in faith and love and sanctification with modesty” (1 Timothy 2:15).

These are but a few of the Biblical misogynist instructions. They are the equal of the Q'ran's. Both Christians and Muslims largely ignore the instructions in their Holy Books nowadays, except for traditionalists and extremists. Today's modern society has moved on markedly from those days, thankfully, both Christian and Muslim. To characterise the majority viewpoint of Muslims as being the same as the traditional or extremists one is to ignore the same groups within Christianity...

Somehow I dont think too many ministers of religion would preach TODAY what you have quoted.
The instructions given verbally by muslim leaders TODAY would be at odds with those given by
Ministers of religions. I really cant see the point in comparing biblical quotes from YESTERYEAR, to those practices taught TODAY
by muslim leaders.................
BTW I sense from your quotes and general posting that at one stage you may have been well versed in theology...Were you at any stage a minister of religion, and then packed it in....just wondering............

Ah, and you know this, how, Billy? Been to any Mosques lately, Mmmm? No, I don't think you've even met a single Muslim in your entire life, have you?

Mosques, like Churches reflect what the congregation wants to hear, as well as what the Imam/Priest wants to preach. Mosques are actually more democratically controlled, unlike most Churches. There is no hierarchy in Islam - were you aware of that? Churches OTOH rely upon direction "from above" and have bishops/arch-bishops/Cardninals/etc. dictating theology and doctrine. Islam is much more individualistic as well, compared to Christianity.

Oh, and invariably as one Muslim put it to me, the Imam is the most unworldly and more ignorant person in the congregation, compared to the majority of it's members. Why? 'cause the Imam doesn't need to "live in the real world," he just needs to learn the Q'ran.

You, like most Islamophobes, like to seize upon the worst aspects of Islam, rather than actually talking to ordinary, everyday, Muslims. You ignore the similarities between the Christianity and Islam, in favour of just slamming Islam. Christianity has learnt to live with modern soceity - yet you can still hear "fire and brimstone" preachers. Same in Islam. Just like the Christian preachers, the Muslim ones largely get ignored by most of their congregations. Funny that, hey?

Then you have a problem. You like to paint all Muslims as devout, as members of Daesh or the Taliban or other extremist groups, that they pray five times a day and attend Mosque daily. Yes, a tiny minority do but only approximately 40-45% of Muslims attend Mosque each week. Rather different to the Borg-like Muslims that you portray them as...

As to my personal career, no, I've never been a Minister or a Priest, Billy. I hold however, a DD - a Doctor of Divinity Degree. I studied it 'cause I find theology rather interesting and I treat the Bible as rather a poor history lesson, rift with propaganda. And I'm an agnostic as well. Funny that, hey?

OK So let me get this straight....you wont defend or criticize mohammed...you wont defend or criticize islam...you say that imams are the most unworldly and ignorant in the congregation...so where do muslims get their knowledge....oops sorry
only half the planets muslims attend their mosque...but you cant provide proof of that...as usual you just dance around.....
and then tell me you hold a Doctor of Divinity Degree....I dont really think you know much at at all...
BTW Im an apostate....

While referring specifically to Western Sydney, it is generally indicative of Muslims Australia wide, Billy:

Mosque attendance was not as strong (10% daily, 30% weekly and 51% occasionally) given that only Friday prayer is required for compulsory attendance and that is for men only.

[Source]

Committing to prayer does not necessarily involve mosque attendance. Nonetheless, mosque attendance is another clear indicator of religiosity. Respondents were asked to indicate the frequency of mosque attendance. We acknowledge here gender as an important variable in mosque attendance, as Friday mosque-based Jumah prayers are seen as compulsory for men only. Nonetheless, the question of mosque attendance was asked of every respondent. As expected, few respondents attended daily and only one-quarter (25.1%) of the face-to-face respondents and one-third of the telephone respondents (26%) attended weekly

[Source]

Oh, and double, treble posting doesn't really make things work for you, do they, mate?

[billy the kid]

The Bible is full of misogyny - afterall it reflects the culture that created it:

An unmarried woman could be compelled to marry her rapist, as long as the rapist could pay the standard bride price and the woman’s father was comfortable with the marriage (Deuteronomy 22:28–29). Polygyny (a man having multiple wives at the same time) was not condemned, but was an accepted and legal custom (Deuteronomy 21:15–17; Genesis 4:19–24; and 2 Samuel 3:2–5). A woman’s religious vow could be nullified by her father or her husband (Numbers 30:3–15). And the assumption of the text is that the priesthood is all male (Leviticus 21). In short, within the legal literature of the Bible, women were not accorded the same status as men.

[1 Timothy 2] begins by stating that “men should pray” (and the word used here for men is andras, a gendered word that refers only to males) and then says “women should dress themselves modestly and decently” (vv. 8–9). So men are to pray, and women are to dress modestly. That’s quite a contrast. But there’s more: “Let a woman learn in silence and full submission. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to be silent” (vv. 11–12). The rationale: “For Adam was formed first, then Eve, and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor” (vv. 13–14). According to this text, women were to be silent in worship gatherings (and men were certainly not told to be silent), and the rationale for this mandate is that woman (Eve) was created second and sinned first. And the final blow is this: A woman “will be saved” (the future tense of the standard word for “be saved,” “be given salvation”) “through childbirth if she remains in faith and love and sanctification with modesty” (1 Timothy 2:15).

These are but a few of the Biblical misogynist instructions. They are the equal of the Q'ran's. Both Christians and Muslims largely ignore the instructions in their Holy Books nowadays, except for traditionalists and extremists. Today's modern society has moved on markedly from those days, thankfully, both Christian and Muslim. To characterise the majority viewpoint of Muslims as being the same as the traditional or extremists one is to ignore the same groups within Christianity...

Somehow I dont think too many ministers of religion would preach TODAY what you have quoted.
The instructions given verbally by muslim leaders TODAY would be at odds with those given by
Ministers of religions. I really cant see the point in comparing biblical quotes from YESTERYEAR, to those practices taught TODAY
by muslim leaders.................
BTW I sense from your quotes and general posting that at one stage you may have been well versed in theology...Were you at any stage a minister of religion, and then packed it in....just wondering............

Ah, and you know this, how, Billy? Been to any Mosques lately, Mmmm? No, I don't think you've even met a single Muslim in your entire life, have you?

Mosques, like Churches reflect what the congregation wants to hear, as well as what the Imam/Priest wants to preach. Mosques are actually more democratically controlled, unlike most Churches. There is no hierarchy in Islam - were you aware of that? Churches OTOH rely upon direction "from above" and have bishops/arch-bishops/Cardninals/etc. dictating theology and doctrine. Islam is much more individualistic as well, compared to Christianity.

Oh, and invariably as one Muslim put it to me, the Imam is the most unworldly and more ignorant person in the congregation, compared to the majority of it's members. Why? 'cause the Imam doesn't need to "live in the real world," he just needs to learn the Q'ran.

You, like most Islamophobes, like to seize upon the worst aspects of Islam, rather than actually talking to ordinary, everyday, Muslims. You ignore the similarities between the Christianity and Islam, in favour of just slamming Islam. Christianity has learnt to live with modern soceity - yet you can still hear "fire and brimstone" preachers. Same in Islam. Just like the Christian preachers, the Muslim ones largely get ignored by most of their congregations. Funny that, hey?

Then you have a problem. You like to paint all Muslims as devout, as members of Daesh or the Taliban or other extremist groups, that they pray five times a day and attend Mosque daily. Yes, a tiny minority do but only approximately 40-45% of Muslims attend Mosque each week. Rather different to the Borg-like Muslims that you portray them as...

As to my personal career, no, I've never been a Minister or a Priest, Billy. I hold however, a DD - a Doctor of Divinity Degree. I studied it 'cause I find theology rather interesting and I treat the Bible as rather a poor history lesson, rift with propaganda. And I'm an agnostic as well. Funny that, hey?

OK So let me get this straight....you wont defend or criticize mohammed...you wont defend or criticize islam...you say that imams are the most unworldly and ignorant in the congregation...so where do muslims get their knowledge....oops sorry
only half the planets muslims attend their mosque...but you cant provide proof of that...as usual you just dance around.....
and then tell me you hold a Doctor of Divinity Degree....I dont really think you know much at at all...
BTW Im an apostate....

While referring specifically to Western Sydney, it is generally indicative of Muslims Australia wide, Billy:

Mosque attendance was not as strong (10% daily, 30% weekly and 51% occasionally) given that only Friday prayer is required for compulsory attendance and that is for men only.

[Source]

Committing to prayer does not necessarily involve mosque attendance. Nonetheless, mosque attendance is another clear indicator of religiosity. Respondents were asked to indicate the frequency of mosque attendance. We acknowledge here gender as an important variable in mosque attendance, as Friday mosque-based Jumah prayers are seen as compulsory for men only. Nonetheless, the question of mosque attendance was asked of every respondent. As expected, few respondents attended daily and only one-quarter (25.1%) of the face-to-face respondents and one-third of the telephone respondents (26%) attended weekly

[Source]

Oh, and double, treble posting doesn't really make things work for you, do they, mate?

Youre a joke...you really are...
First of all you generalize and say that 45% of muslims dont even attend their mosque....
Then you say that its only in Western Sydney....
And when you look at the link...you have a pathetically small sample of 578 people contacted.....
Your sample is bullshit......its too small to arrive at a conclusion.......how can you say that 45% of muslims
dont even attend their mosque when your sample is only 578.....pft......
You say its generally indicative of muslims Australia wide....htf would you know.......
Obviously with immediate access to this data...youre a muslim and youre to gutless to admit it......

[brian ross]

I first read the 45% over a decade ago, Billy. You now demand a link. I know that old link isn't available any more so I find a new one, with slightly different figures. Yes, I agree the sample is small but hey, you gotta make do with what you can find.

Now, why don't you run along and find some evidence to defeat what I have said, rather than attacking the messenger...

[billy the kid]

I first read the 45% over a decade ago, Billy. You now demand a link. I know that old link isn't available any more so I find a new one, with slightly different figures. Yes, I agree the sample is small but hey, you gotta make do with what you can find.

Now, why don't you run along and find some evidence to defeat what I have said, rather than attacking the messenger...

Oh so now the 45% is over ten years old.......youre a real piece of work.....just full of shit....typical muslim....

[Black Orchid]

Anecdotes are not proof of anything Brian. A lot more than 45% attend their mosques in Sydney and, what's more, why keep building them if less than half attend when we have over 100 already?

These are just the ones outside the mosque!

[billy the kid]

Anecdotes are not proof of anything Brian. A lot more than 45% attend their mosques in Sydney and, what's more, why keep building them if less than half attend when we have over 100 already?

These are just the ones outside the mosque!

376 mosques in Australia......all representing "conquered land".....and more being built and even more buildings not
officially a mosque...just a house......

[brian ross]

That is a picture, Black Orchid of a special day of prayer that occurs at the end of Ramadan. It is not what is generally undertaken. It is like the equivalent to Easter or Christmas for Christians. Tell me, does this picture show that we need more churches 'round Oz?