Dear Green Lefth Swampfilth...

[Super Nova]

I look forward to you admission that climate change is real (95% chance it is due to man).

[IQS.RLOW]

I look forward to you admission that climate change is real (95% chance it is due to man).

I do love the irony in you having to couch your 100% total belief in a made up statistics of 95% That would be the same made up terms and statistics that your Bible and educational institutionalized Marxist cronys like John Cook with his "97% of all climate scientists"
95%
Most likely
Probable
High confidence


Perhaps you can enlighten the world and clarify exactly how much temperature has risen since 1998?


I'm surprised you are so willing to hand over control of your life to unelected and unaccountable elites.
Some would call this foolhardy, but not me...I prefer the more appropriate "batshit fucking idiocy"

[Outlaw Yogi]

Yep! PV solar cheapest of all, to set up and over the life time of every power source going

Cheap to set up but useless as a power source. A kinetic energy system is also cheap and will last a lifetime.
It doesn't mean they are good for running a consumser household, let alone any industry.

Didn't mention/say anything about "running" an industry, but now that you've introduced it I'll mention that solar thermal turbines [heated sodium] is quite adequate for that. If or when it becomes cheaper than coal or gas, it'll replace coal or gas, or both.

Even if the RET subsidy scam didn't exist and the energy market wasn't massively distorted, plenty of people would still obtain PV solar panels

Nope. Without a feed in tariff (the one that they whack on every consumer who hasn't joined the enviro-mentardals), they are next to useless and couldn't power a beer fridge.

Well most people in the bush these days disagree with you. Running the fridge and freezer is the biggest hurdle, so most use banks of 2 volt deep cell batteries hooked up to inverters, but out my way it's becoming common to use 12 volt fridges and freezers. Admittedly the 12 volt freezer only has a 60 litre max capacity, but it works. And none of them are doing it for a feed-in pay off, because they're off grid.
When they want to run a 240 volt vacuum cleaner or washing machine, they revert to a generator.

#1 it's cheaper than getting mains power hooked up, and #2 you save a $hitload on energy costs.

It isnt and it doesn't. A storage system is required which is not cost effective and will be drained before it can be recharged

What a load of shit! .. if it wasn't cost effective, no-one would bother. The deep cell batteries must be replaced every 7 years, in the mean time they save $hitloads on having no power bills. Just a matter of economics.

Just last year the Australian ran an article about the CEO of Australia's biggest coal mine who bought a rural property and was quoted $25k to get mains power put on, so he put a $17k solar power set up in instead and has no power bills.

Link? No mine will operate on solar alone let alone a piddling $17k system which I would estimate at ~ 15KW maximum without storage and is equal to around 5 standard 10A power points in a household if the sun was directly overhead, no clouds and was shining 24/7.

That's right, no link. As I mentioned I read it in the Australian last year. And if you weren't trying to alter what I stated or don't understand the term "rural property" you wouldn't be pretending you imagined I insinuated a coal mine was being run on PV panels. But now that you've introduced the suggestion, I'll repeat my above statement that it could be run on solar thermal turbines, and when considered cost effective, probably will be.
There'll always be a market for coal. Currently lots of mines are using driverless trucks, and when they can get their hands on them they'll probably start using driverless electric trucks, charged off the same system that the electric scoops on the open cut face are used.

It's far cheaper and more reliable to use a diesel genset for off grid applications, which is actually what everyone who isn't an idiot or getting a subsidized by the taxpayer does.

If that was the case, that's what everyone [in the bush] would do, but they're not. And for good reason, sunshine's cheaper than motor fuel.

Clearly you're arguing this on ideological grounds, otherwise you wouldn't ignore the obvious.
I'm arguing this on economic grounds and couldn't give a rat's poo tube about the environmental factors.
I burn all my rubbish (except glass) including steel cans [then they rust away] and if I was concerned about environmental factors I wouldn't be burning plastic.

When you get a chance to look at something other than the monitor screen, you might notice that within the urban bubble the up and coming go getters are buying $3 million penthouses with a view of apartment blocks and don't care about their power bills. Meanwhile their management staff are buying 2 story brick vaneers and whacking banks of PV panels on them to cash in on the RET.

Then if you exit that urban bubble you should see that those who've made it or are already somebody are trading in the Porsche or Mazerati for a 4WD BMW or Range Rover, packing the kids off to boarding school, buying a rural property and installing off grid PV solar set ups with a back up generator.

Virtually nobody in the bush is hooking up to the grid. Those who can't afford a solar set up build their own bit by bit or just get a genny, but most are going PV solar and mini wind turbines with a back up generator.
I know 1 person (a Turk at my work who lives in an adjoining valley) who's got mains power on in recent times.
It cost him $10K (close to road) but his excuse is "It adds value to the property" - he intends to sell and move.
On my road there are 15 properties. 1 (the fire chief) is on the grid, everybody else has a solar set up or genny or both. Custard Guts asked about going on the grid and was quoted $25K (not close to road).

[IQS.RLOW]

Didn't mention/say anything about "running" an industry, but now that you've introduced it I'll mention that solar thermal turbines [heated sodium] is quite adequate for that. If or when it becomes cheaper than coal or gas, it'll replace coal or gas, or both.

Of course you can mention a massively expensive technology that is nowhere near being near a commercial reality! Every other green nutbag has been banging on about it for a decade or more yet the biggest plant currently is only 150MW, produces about 57 days of power a year for 4x the price...

The 110MW molten salt experiment, when it manages to be operational has only been able to generate 1/10th of their output, has been shutdown for 6 months, cost 10 times what a gas fired plant would cost to build and is subsidized to supply power 30% higher than the combined average price of every other energy provider.

Well most people in the bush these days disagree with you.

If they disagreed with me, they wouldn't need to resort to a bank of batteries and a genset.

Running the fridge and freezer is the biggest hurdle, so most use banks of 2 volt deep cell batteries hooked up to inverters, but out my way it's becoming common to use 12 volt fridges and freezers. Admittedly the 12 volt freezer only has a 60 litre max capacity, but it works. And none of them are doing it for a feed-in pay off, because they're off grid.
When they want to run a 240 volt vacuum cleaner or washing machine, they revert to a generator.

Exactly my point. Without the genny the solar panels are not worth a pinch of shit and would struggle to power a bank of batteries big enough to last a few hours of cloud cover let alone a week. When winter comes, you might be able to build a humpy from the useless shit on the roof you paid a fortune for...

Essentially, what you have is a cheap, reliable diesel base load generator that is supplemented by an expensive solar battery charger and a battery bank that will rely more on the genset for recharging than the solar panels. You may as well get rid of the solar array and spend the money on diesel, a backyard biodiesel setup or spit out for a natural gas powered genny if you want real running cost savings.

What a load of shit! .. if it wasn't cost effective, no-one would bother. The deep cell batteries must be replaced every 7 years, in the mean time they save $hitloads on having no power bills. Just a matter of economics.

Lets look at the economics then...and we will assume that most people want to continue living their lives according to their current arrangements.
Do you need me to tell you how many deep cycle batteries are needed to provide power for an average Aussie house to last a week?
Allowing for redundancy and system losses you will need a minimum of 25-30x 400AH 12V deep cycle batteries.
Care to have a guess at the cost of a battery bank that size using reasonable quality deep cycle batteries?
Leaving aside the cost of the solar panels, degradation etc, just the battery bank cost and replacement every 7 years would be enough to run a diesel genset 12 hours a day, 365 days a year for every one of those 7 years without missing a beat and you don't have to live like a candlelight cave monkey

That's right, no link. As I mentioned I read it in the Australian last year. And if you weren't trying to alter what I stated or don't understand the term "rural property" you wouldn't be pretending you imagined I insinuated a coal mine was being run on PV panels. But now that you've introduced the suggestion, I'll repeat my above statement that it could be run on solar thermal turbines, and when considered cost effective, probably will be.

My mistake about the rural property. My point still stands. $17K would only pay for enough panels for an average house off-grid. Without a genny or a battery bank that costs 4x as much and has to be replaced, the panels are useless. Molten CSP are a long way from being operational and reliable, let alone cost efficient. Molten CSP has not lived up to the hype and they can't even compete with PV in the distorted market conditions gifts have created.

Virtually nobody in the bush is hooking up to the grid. Those who can't afford a solar set up build their own bit by bit or just get a genny, but most are going PV solar and mini wind turbines with a back up generator.

The diesel genny isnt a backup, it's essential. Without it, the systems fall over.
The economic case doesn't exist with the cost of diesel vs the cost of solar/wind and batteries
PV + batteries + wind = expensive + unreliable - minus contiguous supply
You haven't argued any economic case except "but it's what everyone is doing!"

The whole point is that you will need an instantaneous power supply to draw on. "Renewables" cannot produce reliable power in their current form without reliance on some form of fueled power generation.

How about you work out how long and how many kW solar array and wind generation you will need to charge that weeks worth of battery power once it has been drained over a week of winter and clouds?...then you can claim you have looked at the "economics"

[Bobby]

Hi IQ,
can you consider solar cells on a roof in summer when an air-conditioner is running?

[IQS.RLOW]

Hi IQ,
can you consider solar cells on a roof in summer when an air-conditioner is running?

You need to qualify your question and the objective,

[Bobby]

Hi IQ,
can you consider solar cells on a roof in summer when an air-conditioner is running?

You need to qualify your question and the objective,

Hi IQ,
that is very clear to me.
The solar cells work the best during the hot days of summer & that's just when you're
using an air conditioner - normally very expensive to run.
The solar cells give you free electricity to run the aircon.

[Outlaw Yogi]

Well most people in the bush these days disagree with you.

If they disagreed with me, they wouldn't need to resort to a bank of batteries and a genset.

Rubbish! .. a battery bank has always been a standard part of a PV solar system, just like the steel towers and 11,000 volt high tension lines are part of a grid powered by coal or gas.
A PV solar set up, supplemented with some mini wind turbines and back up genny is the most practical/cost effective way to go off grid, and heaps of people are saying "fuck the electricity companies".

Running the fridge and freezer is the biggest hurdle, so most use banks of 2 volt deep cell batteries hooked up to inverters, but out my way it's becoming common to use 12 volt fridges and freezers. Admittedly the 12 volt freezer only has a 60 litre max capacity, but it works. And none of them are doing it for a feed-in pay off, because they're off grid.
When they want to run a 240 volt vacuum cleaner or washing machine, they revert to a generator.

Exactly my point. Without the genny the solar panels are not worth a pinch of shit and would struggle to power a bank of batteries big enough to last a few hours of cloud cover let alone a week. When winter comes, you might be able to build a humpy from the useless shit on the roof you paid a fortune for...

Crap! ... about the only time you hear the gennies along my road is during summer evenings, to make sure the fridges and freezers don't drain the batteries over night.
My neighbour Custard Guts ran a big diesel genny for years. Enquired about mains power and was quoted $25K. So he got the Life & Death Sgt who lives 2 blocks from me to build him a solar set up.
It has 6 X 20volt PV panels and 2 mini wind turbines (can't remember inverter details). This system runs the lights and fridge. When he wants to use the plasma screen telly he fires up the genny.

Essentially, what you have is a cheap, reliable diesel base load generator that is supplemented by an expensive solar battery charger and a battery bank that will rely more on the genset for recharging than the solar panels. You may as well get rid of the solar array and spend the money on diesel, a backyard biodiesel setup or spit out for a natural gas powered genny if you want real running cost savings.

Well it just so happens I know a tomato farmer (and would be conservative pollie) who used to make his own bio-diesel to run his tractors on. He reckons it's not worth the effort compared to the cost of diesel.

Anyway, your argument is that PV solar systems are an expensive dud. Well this area supports several solar power shops. 2 or 3 in Bundy, 1 in Gin Gin and 1 in Wallaville. Don't know if there's one in Childers but wouldn't be surprised if there is. I take it for granted Gladstone would have several and Biloela probably has 1 too.

Of the 4 solar power shops within 100km of me 1 owns their premises (Wallaville). Commercial rents around here are $500-$1000 per week. So the poorest post codes in Qld (4670 & 4671) somehow manage to support 4 solar power businesses, 3 off which probably pay $700+ a week in rent.

Plenty of people subsist with a genny til they can afford a solar system. If the solar power systems weren't cost effective, those solar power businesses would fold. Particularly when virtually everyone buying the products are off grid.

EDIT ADDITION: Haven't seen them myself yet, but I've been hearing about PV panels that function off moonlight.

[IQS.RLOW]

Rubbish! .. a battery bank has always been a standard part of a PV solar system

Nope, battery who's have never been "standard" for any solar system. Batteries banks need to be custom designed for the work and time required under load conditions, which vary greatly from running a 60L fridge freezer for 24 hours, which has been done by 4WDs with an Engel in the back for 50 years without any great need for any solar panels. To being able to run a household for a week, which I note you seem to have missed my question to you...

work out how long and how many kW solar array and wind generation you will need to charge that weeks worth of battery power once it has been drained over a week of winter and clouds?..

Even being able to run a household​ for a week by itself is only a stop-gap measure that will eventually have you reaching for good old fossil fuel reliability.
No solar system by itself will ever be able to cost effectively run and recharge what a standard household will draw from a suitable bank of batteries.
So the above ^^^^ question is perinent to the practicality of an off-grid solar system that you should address if you want to say "fuck the power companies"

Running a fridge, light and TV is nothing more than a caravan, which coincidentally also aren't much chop without the petrol generator on wheels that usually sits at the front and tows the thing around.

Anyway, your argument is that PV solar systems are an expensive dud. Well this area supports several solar power shops. 2 or 3 in Bundy, 1 in Gin Gin and 1 in Wallaville. Don't know if there's one in Childers but wouldn't be surprised if there is. I take it for granted Gladstone would have several and Biloela probably has 1 too.

Of the 4 solar power shops within 100km of me 1 owns their premises (Wallaville). Commercial rents around here are $500-$1000 per week. So the poorest post codes in Qld (4670 & 4671) somehow manage to support 4 solar power businesses, 3 off which probably pay $700+ a week in rent.

It never occured to you that a govt subsidised scheme would be easily saturated by suppliers, just like pink batts?
The govt rebates are paid to the suppliers as STCs and traded on "green markets" where they acquire them from customer installations by trading them off against the install cost with most of them sitting on the certificates hoping the price will jump.
Have a guess at who actually pays the cost of the STC? The taxpayer!

Have a guess at why carbon trading in one form or another is still being advocated for?
Have a guess who the vested interests are? The solar suppliers? The ones holding the certs? The ones trading the certs? The markets that carry the certs?
How about the whole fucking lot of them...
Have a guess at who is now offering to put systems on your roof for "free" but will take 90% of the feed in tariff generated over the life of the system?

All those solar businesses are definately being supported but it isn't from having a great product that stands on its own feet.
They are supported by a market bought and paid for by the taxpayer and so badly designed, the cost component of reliable and continous energy supply was never factored in. It essentially values a unit of energy that can be generated on demand the same value as a unit of energy that is heavily constrained.

They are totally different products so it's no wonder an industry was quickly created around a govt sanctioned bureaucratic fuckup to take advantage of it and will do everything they can to make sure that either the taxpayer is on the hook for life or will pay for them piling into the bandwagon until the axles broke.

Either way, the taxpayers will have to pay dearly to try and redirect yet another lefty introduced redistribution road paved with green intentions that history will judge as one of the more idiot lefty ideas.

Hi IQ,
that is very clear to me.
The solar cells work the best during the hot days of summer & that's just when you're
using an air conditioner - normally very expensive to run.
The solar cells give you free electricity to run the aircon.

As I said, you need to qualify the question, such as
What size aircon?
What type of aircon?
What size area?
Heating and cooling?
What size solar system?
Grid tied or off-grid?
What state?
What feed in tariff?
What changes proposed or possible from the govts that can effect the subsidies?

Once you do all the calculations on raw costs without the tax handouts, all you are doing is pushing the cost and reliability of the network up which will soon mean the great saving you think you made will reduce over time with energy increases, replacement costs and wind backs of policy as the cracks begin to appear and the resultant economic and social damages become more apparent.

Eventually you will be back to where you started energy cost wise while everyone who is unable to afford or able to install has their costs increased to pay for your tariff for energy you feed back in. Which is really just a govt forced, pyramid scheme discount that is unaffordable because the energy you feed back is less than worthless for the energy generator.

If you remove all the taxpayer funded rebates, certificates, tarriffs etc then the answer is still no be because the cost/benefit does not stack up.
Which is why anyone with half a brain could see it would end up a cluster fuck. Govt intervention in any market will attract every con-artist, scam merchant and rent seeker from around the world and destroy even those with better than marginal cost/benefits.
In this case they had to create a market so they found someone who manages to somehow live as a normal human but without a functioning brain and they signed off on a market that not only had a negative cost/benefit so they also weighted it against the product responsible for humans thriving and increases in the global standard of living since the industrial age.

How anyone could think govt would NOT fuck this up when every other govt market intervention, even with +cost/benefits ends up as an expensive cluster fuck? Unfortunately, most people do not think hard enough about what you are getting, why you are getting it, where is it coming from and where does it end up.

TL;DR: People are fucking idiots.

[Bobby]

IQ

As I said, you need to qualify the question, such as
What size aircon?
What type of aircon?
What size area?
Heating and cooling?
What size solar system?
Grid tied or off-grid?
What state?
What feed in tariff?
What changes proposed or possible from the govts that can effect the subsidies?

Answer -
The largest aircon that can be run from the solar cells on the roof
without needing to draw power from the grid.
The feedin tariff doesn't matter then because you're not feeding any electricity back in to the grid -
you're just running the aircon from solar cells.


You're lowering the amount of electricity required during the summer peak times
so everyone is happy.