Same-Sex Marriage

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Rorschach
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Same-Sex Marriage

Post by Rorschach » Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:46 pm

Obama wants it...
The Greens want it...
The progs in Labor want it...
The progs in the Coalition want it...

The latest judgement from the US courts.
The judgment addresses the issue of why the state is involved in legislating on marriage.

First, while those wanting to redefine marriage argue that marriage is about two people loving each other, the court notes that governments don’t regulate love. Rather, governments “regulate sex, most especially the intended and unintended effects of male-female intercourse”.

The court explains its reasoning in this way: “Imagine a society without marriage. It does not take long to envision problems that might result from an absence of rules about how to handle the natural effects of male-female intercourse: children.”

It goes on to ask: “May men and women follow their procreative urges wherever they take them? Who is responsible for the children that result? How many mates may an individual have? How does one decide which set of mates is responsible for which set of children?

“That we rarely think about these questions nowadays shows only how far we have come and how relatively stable our society is, not that States have no explanation for creating such rules in the first place.”

The court says that people don’t “need the government’s encouragement to have sex” or “to propagate the species”, but people “may well need the government’s encouragement to create and maintain stable relationships within which children may flourish”.

This need for marriage policy is based on human nature: “It is not society’s laws, or for that matter any one religion’s laws, but nature’s laws (that men and women complement each other biologically), that created the policy imperative.”

Marriage policy is necessary as an “incentive for two people who procreate together to stay together for purposes of rearing offspring”.

The court concluded that “one can well appreciate why the citizenry would think that a reasonable first concern of any society is the need to regulate male-female relationships and the unique procreative possibilities of them”.

The court decision cautions against other courts overturning the referenda decision of voters in favour of a radical redefinition of marriage, particularly given the long tradition of rationality undergirding marriage laws.

“How can we say that the voters acted irrationally for sticking with the seen benefits of thousands of years of adherence to the traditional definition of marriage in the face of one year of experience with a new definition of marriage?

“A state still assessing how this has worked … is not showing irrationality, just a sense of stability and an interest in seeing how the new definition has worked elsewhere.

“Even today, the only thing anyone knows for sure about the long-term impact of redefining marriage is that they do not know.”

The court also explained why narrow arguments, like “marriage is all about love”, fail.

“Their definition … fails to account for the reality that no State in the country requires couples, whether gay or straight, to be in love.”

At the same time, a re-definition of marriage being only about “love” would have no limiting principle. It would lead to the redefinition of marriage to include every consenting adult relationship, including polygamy or polyamory.

As the court explains: “Their definition … fails to account for plural marriages, where there is no reason to think that three or four adults, whether gay, bisexual or straight, lack the capacity to share love, affection and commitment, or for that matter lack the capacity to be capable (and more plentiful) parents to boot.”

“If it is constitutionally irrational to stand by the man-woman definition of marriage, it must be constitutionally irrational to stand by the monogamous definition of marriage. Plaintiffs have no answer to the point.”

The court has also ruled that it was reasonable for the voters in these states to define marriage as they have.

When it comes to the actual text of the U.S. Constitution, there is no right to same-sex marriage: “The right to marry in general, and the right to gay marriage in particular, nowhere appear in the Constitution. That route for recognising a fundamental right to same-sex marriage does not exist.”

So what about the right being implicit because of “bedrock assumptions about liberty”? The court’s answer: “This too does not work.”

The court has also answered the argument that banning same-sex couples from marriage is like banning a black person from marrying a white person. This referred to a time in American history when interracial marriage was prohibited in some states.

As the court rightly notes, when the U.S. Supreme Court struck down bans on interracial marriage in 1967, it “addressed, and rightly corrected, an unconstitutional eligibility requirement for marriage; it did not create a new definition of marriage”.

The court goes on to acknowledge that same-sex couples have experienced unjust discrimination under some laws, but marriage laws are not a form of discrimination against such couples:

“We also cannot deny that the institution of marriage arose independently of this record of discrimination. The traditional definition of marriage goes back thousands of years and spans almost every society in history.

“By contrast, ‘American laws targeting same-sex couples did not develop until the last third of the 20th century’.”

The court, in its decision, has argued against claims by lower courts that banning gays from marriage was a violation of the U.S. constitution — a violation of the 14th Amendment.

The 14th Amendment of 1868 provides equal protection of citizenship rights under the law, and was proposed in response to issues related to former slaves following the American Civil War.

The 6th Appeals Court, in its ruling, noted that “not a single U.S. Supreme Court Justice in American history has written an opinion maintaining that the traditional definition of marriage violates the 14th Amendment”.

The court has defended the right of U.S. citizens to decide the future of marriage through the political system, and not have courts overrule state referenda on marriage.

The court says that any change to marriage, if it should come, should occur “through the customary political processes, in which the people, gay and straight alike, become the heroes of their own stories by meeting each other not as adversaries in a court system but as fellow citizens seeking to resolve a new social issue in a fair-minded way.

“When the courts do not let the people resolve new social issues like this one, they perpetuate the idea that the heroes in these change events are judges and lawyers.”

Ultimately, the 6th Circuit Court has ruled that it will not usurp the authority of the American people to discuss, debate and make marriage policy.

The ruling argues that change could come in only one of two ways: either through judicial-activist judges usurping the political process, or else through the political process, such as people voting in a state referendum.

And the court has rightly refused to take the former course.

Instead, the court has argued that the political process should be respected, saying that it “is dangerous and demeaning to the citizenry to assume that we, and only we [i.e., the judges], can fairly understand the arguments for and against gay marriage”.

What happens to marriage next in America will depend on what decisions are made by the U.S. Supreme Court.
http://www.newsweekly.com.au/article.php?id=56779
DOLT - A person who is stupid and entirely tedious at the same time, like bwian. Oblivious to their own mental incapacity. On IGNORE - Warrior, mellie, Nom De Plume, FLEKTARD

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Rorschach
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Re: Same-Sex Marriage

Post by Rorschach » Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:47 pm

Wow common-sense in the legal system after all... who'd a thunk it. :thumb
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mantra
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Re: Same-Sex Marriage

Post by mantra » Sat Nov 22, 2014 5:00 pm

The article seemed contradictory and overly complicated. The judgment advocates for people power, then retracts it just as quickly.

The Courts, the Federal and State governments will continue to dictate as they see fit regardless of how the "citizenry" feel about gay marriage. For this dilemma to be resolved satisfactorily - we need a referendum, but it won't happen. In the long run it would save time and money rather than this endless speculation and debate which always goes nowhere.

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Rorschach
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Re: Same-Sex Marriage

Post by Rorschach » Sat Nov 22, 2014 5:12 pm

You seem to call everything you read and fail to understand "contradictory and overly complicated" mantra.
Seemed straight forward and sensible to me.

The gays don't want a referendum here mantra. Because those of them that want gay marriage know they will lose.
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AiA in Atlanta
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Re: Same-Sex Marriage

Post by AiA in Atlanta » Sun Nov 23, 2014 9:48 am

Human consciousness is evolving (as it always has) and that shows in the movements around cannabis and same-sex marriage. Politicians can and will slow it down but they cannot stop it.

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mantra
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Re: Same-Sex Marriage

Post by mantra » Sun Nov 23, 2014 1:03 pm

AiA in Atlanta wrote:Human consciousness is evolving (as it always has) and that shows in the movements around cannabis and same-sex marriage. Politicians can and will slow it down but they cannot stop it.
This is true. Legalising same sex marriage is inevitable - even here in backwater Australia. I'm not entirely happy with the issue of marijuana being legalised, but it's going to happen here shortly, for medicinal reasons anyway.

The number of transgender children and adults globally seems to be increasing in leaps and bounds and governments are giving into their demands to legally change their gender without too much hassle, but they still can't have their birth certificates changed to the sex of their choosing. This problem will have to be addressed sooner rather than later, because too many heterosexuals will be ultimately deceived into believing their partner is the opposite sex. The whole non-heterosexual issue has to be confronted and made lega or at least have some boundaries determined.
Most legal jurisdictions recognise the two traditional gender identities and social roles, man and woman, but tend to exclude any other gender identities, and expressions. There is now a greater understanding of the breadth of variation outside the typical categories of 'man, and 'woman', and many self-descriptions are now entering the literature, including pan-gender, polygender, gender queer and non gender. Medically and socially the term 'transsexualism' is being replaced with 'gender dysphoria, and terms such as 'transgender people' and 'trans men and trans women' are replacing the narrow category of transsexual people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aspe ... ssexualism

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Rorschach
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Re: Same-Sex Marriage

Post by Rorschach » Sun Nov 23, 2014 4:01 pm

mantra wrote:
AiA in Atlanta wrote:Human consciousness is evolving (as it always has) and that shows in the movements around cannabis and same-sex marriage. Politicians can and will slow it down but they cannot stop it.
This is true. Legalising same sex marriage is inevitable - even here in backwater Australia. I'm not entirely happy with the issue of marijuana being legalised, but it's going to happen here shortly, for medicinal reasons anyway. If it's regulated - then it might be OK, but this legislation seems to be abused in the US.

The number of transgender children and adults globally seems to be increasing in leaps and bounds and governments are giving into their demands to legally change their gender without too much hassle, but they still can't have their birth certificates altered to the sex of their choosing. This problem will have to be addressed sooner rather than later, because too many heterosexuals will ultimately be deceived into believing their partner is the opposite sex. The whole non-heterosexual issue has to be confronted and made legal.
Most legal jurisdictions recognise the two traditional gender identities and social roles, man and woman, but tend to exclude any other gender identities, and expressions. There is now a greater understanding of the breadth of variation outside the typical categories of 'man, and 'woman', and many self-descriptions are now entering the literature, including pan-gender, polygender, gender queer and non gender. Medically and socially the term 'transsexualism' is being replaced with 'gender dysphoria, and terms such as 'transgender people' and 'trans men and trans women' are replacing the narrow category of transsexual people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_aspe ... ssexualism
Bit of a hiccup there eh.
It's not true at all mantra.
If it is what bit of it is true?
We are not a backwater in fact we have been many times a world leader in social and scientific innovation.
I don't mind the legal use of cannabis or derivatives for medication.
Why would you need to make sure people know your sex if same sex marriage was legalised mantra?
Oh and mantra legal recognition of aberrent sexual preference or aberrant sexual dimorphism doesn't mean it is part of the natural order.
DOLT - A person who is stupid and entirely tedious at the same time, like bwian. Oblivious to their own mental incapacity. On IGNORE - Warrior, mellie, Nom De Plume, FLEKTARD

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mantra
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Re: Same-Sex Marriage

Post by mantra » Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:46 pm

Rorschach wrote:Bit of a hiccup there eh.
Yes I stumbled a bit - an aberration of course.
It's not true at all mantra.
If it is what bit of it is true?
We are not a backwater in fact we have been many times a world leader in social and scientific innovation.
We used to be a leader in social and scientific innovation, but huge amounts of funding have been withdrawn over the years and scientists and innovators are struggling. They usually head over to the States or the Europe where they are supported.
I don't mind the legal use of cannabis or derivatives for medication.
Half the population would end up with ailments and need regular prescriptions. I don't want to get into a cab or bus with a stoned driver or get work done around my house by stoned tradesmen.
Why would you need to make sure people know your sex if same sex marriage was legalised mantra?
There wouldn't have been a need for people in our age group to worry about meeting someone who is a transgender - it didn't happen a couple of decades ago, but today it's a different story. You'd go to a club or somewhere similar and meet someone you thought was attractive and then find out later that they're the same sex.

Transgenders are on the increase.
THE leading Queensland psychiatric expert on children with gender identity disorder says the number of transgender children is increasing.

Dr Stephen Stathis said he expected parents of two children would apply to the Family Court for permission for them to be given feminine hormones within the next year and more would follow as others reached puberty.

But he said some desperate parents who were unaware of the professional help available for their anxious transgender children were getting unregulated, unregistered hormones from overseas via the internet.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/quee ... 6641515015
In the UK, Children as young as three years of age are now being admitted to state medical clinics for “corrective treatment” of sex-role noncompliance, with the aim of upholding social norms of gender and to prevent the development of “visibly transgendered” adults. Such treatments involve administration of drugs which halt normal child development (“Puberty Blockers”) followed by the lifetime administration of cross-sex hormones, resulting in sterilization. In the US, the first federally-funded state eugenics program in over thirty years will be launched in Oregon on October 1, 2014, specifically targeting pre-pubertal children deemed by parents and providers to be “transgender”. Surgeons now routinely perform complete “Sexual Reassignment Surgeries”: removing the genitals and reproductive systems of children as young as sixteen.
Oh and mantra legal recognition of aberrent sexual preference or aberrant sexual dimorphism doesn't mean it is part of the natural order.
It may very well become the natural order one day.

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Rorschach
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Re: Same-Sex Marriage

Post by Rorschach » Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:58 pm

mantra wrote:
Rorschach wrote:Bit of a hiccup there eh.
Yes I stumbled a bit - an aberration of course.
It's not true at all mantra.
If it is what bit of it is true?
We are not a backwater in fact we have been many times a world leader in social and scientific innovation.
We used to be a leader in social and scientific innovation, but huge amounts of funding have been withdrawn over the years and scientists and innovators are struggling. They usually head over to the States or the Europe where they are supported.
Got nothing to do with funding mantra...
I don't mind the legal use of cannabis or derivatives for medication.
Half the population would end up with ailments and need regular prescriptions. I don't want to get into a cab or bus with a stoned driver or get work done around my house by stoned tradesmen.
Oh rubbish, do you suppose so many people want to use cannabis? If it is on prescription the uses for it will be limited.
Why would you need to make sure people know your sex if same sex marriage was legalised mantra?
There wouldn't have been a need for people in our age group to worry about meeting someone who is a transgender - it didn't happen a couple of decades ago, but today it's a different story. You'd go to a club or somewhere similar and meet someone you thought was attractive and then find out later that they're the same sex.

Transgenders are on the increase.
I know what you were implying mantra I was trying to get a sensible answer. Like to try answering the actual question again? Or perhaps trying to see the deeper meaning in what I asked?
THE leading Queensland psychiatric expert on children with gender identity disorder says the number of transgender children is increasing.

Dr Stephen Stathis said he expected parents of two children would apply to the Family Court for permission for them to be given feminine hormones within the next year and more would follow as others reached puberty.

But he said some desperate parents who were unaware of the professional help available for their anxious transgender children were getting unregulated, unregistered hormones from overseas via the internet.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/quee ... 6641515015
In the UK, Children as young as three years of age are now being admitted to state medical clinics for “corrective treatment” of sex-role noncompliance, with the aim of upholding social norms of gender and to prevent the development of “visibly transgendered” adults. Such treatments involve administration of drugs which halt normal child development (“Puberty Blockers”) followed by the lifetime administration of cross-sex hormones, resulting in sterilization. In the US, the first federally-funded state eugenics program in over thirty years will be launched in Oregon on October 1, 2014, specifically targeting pre-pubertal children deemed by parents and providers to be “transgender”. Surgeons now routinely perform complete “Sexual Reassignment Surgeries”: removing the genitals and reproductive systems of children as young as sixteen.
Oh and mantra legal recognition of aberrent sexual preference or aberrant sexual dimorphism doesn't mean it is part of the natural order.
It may very well become the natural order one day.
I doubt it very much.
How many gender reassignments out of the 6-7 billion humans are actually necessary due to abberrence?
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mantra
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Re: Same-Sex Marriage

Post by mantra » Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:13 pm

Rorschach wrote:I know what you were implying mantra I was trying to get a sensible answer. Like to try answering the actual question again? Or perhaps trying to see the deeper meaning in what I asked?
My daughter coincidentally had been reading quite a bit about transgenderism recently - those true life stories they have all over the net. I often suggest to her that she needs to find a replacement for her long term boyfriend, but she came back at me yesterday saying that it would be too difficult for her to meet someone else because the boy might turn out to be a girl.That had me thinking back to my days of youthful encounters and it never occurred to me that a boy might actually be a girl.

Some transgenders can be very deceitful, as well as convincing so as it's becoming commonplace - there should be registration somewhere saying that Mary used to be called Bob and Paul used to be called Susan.

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