Surplus unlikely says Swan.

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Sexy Lady

Re: Surplus unlikely says Swan.

Post by Sexy Lady » Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:09 pm

Leftwinger wrote:Hi Sexy Lady.

"Many sensible economists" arguing against pursuing a surplus is a bit of a relatively recent thing. A few argued back during the GFC that returning to Howard government-type surpluses year after year was unlikely to be possible as the private sector needed to repair it's balance sheet and return to more historically normal levels of saving after the biggest household - not government - debt binge in history.

Image

Note also the government's debt - something that causes constant hyperventilating - compared with history....

Image
http://www.stubbornmule.net/2009/07/par ... ebt-truck/

I think we should also note that the coalition's response until very recently has merely been to promise to deliver an even bigger surplus.

I have not changed my mind - I had long hoped that a surplus might be manifest, not as an end in itself but as a result sustained strong growth. But I always had my doubts - the private sector (particularly household) credit bingeing of the past 10-15 years has left a very large hangover of long-term debt to be paid down. And without a large and ongoing surplus in the external sector (something we have never had), accounting realities at the national level dictate that for the private sector to pay down such debt and accrue net savings (surplus), the government sector of the economy must be in deficit.

But for governments, it isn't just about economics. The forementioned makes no sense to the average punter - they understand that it is prudent for their household to balance it's budget and they simply extrapolate that up, logically assuming that if it is good for their household, it must be good for the government and anything else represents incompetence. The inescapable sectoral balances of the economy are not broadly understood by the electorate. For this reason, the risk of being rejected by the misinformed voters for failing to deliver a surplus have been considered very high. Swan has bowed to the inevitable and further, has refused to drive the economy into recession simply because the electorate do not understand the consequences of what they think they want. The coalition's position appears to be rapidly changing to an each way bet - if it transpires that the public will accept an ongoing government deficit, their continued promises to deliver a bigger surplus are going to look seriously out of place.
Lefty, I appreciate all that you said, and indeed it makes sense if Australia was in an economic mess at the outset of the GFC, but we were not. Rather, we were riding high on Chinese investment with a surplus other nations were envious of. Our economy was still healthy and was not to show signs of destabilization until at least two years into the global down sizing... or economic correction, if you prefer. So when it was that the Labor government wiped out our surplus on cash hand outs and failed, ill conceived and implemented 'stimulus' programs, many a sensible economist wondered why? Surely that surplus would be better used to stimulate a slowing economy, which was not our circumstances then? Surely, the government needed to apply Keynesian economics correctly and become the employer of last resort with a view to long term Nation building programs, that in and of themselves create small and medium sized business opportunities which ripple through the corporate economy.

Such planning takes time, and we had the time. We could have held back on big dollar splurges to increase that surplus whilst doing all the ground work necessary for mega projects of the kind that are necessary in the here and now.

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Rorschach
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Re: Surplus unlikely says Swan.

Post by Rorschach » Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:05 pm

Talking sense is rarely a government identifier... both major parties suffer from myopia and The Greens think governments have money to burn or some endless supply that can be topped up by increasing taxes or applying levies.
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Leftwinger
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Re: Surplus unlikely says Swan.

Post by Leftwinger » Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:01 pm

Lefty, I appreciate all that you said, and indeed it makes sense if Australia was in an economic mess at the outset of the GFC, but we were not.
Sexy Lady, your post is much more sensible than the other two so I'll address it first.

The mantra of "go early, go hard, go households" was pretty appropriate I think. When you know a cyclone is coming, you batten the hatches immediately while the sky is still calm - you don't wait until you see trees crashing down and objects flying through the air before starting or it will very likely be too late. The stimulus was not perfect - but it was swiftly implemented and that made a big difference. The government did not wait for a recession to begin, for people to start losing their jobs and homes, for businesses to begin folding up - it acted quickly to forestall one.

Prevention is nearly always better than cure.

As a resident of a resource sector town, I can tell you that I saw investment in resources go backward at a great rate of knots when the GFC struck - thousands lost their jobs where I live. It didn't take long for them to regain those jobs, and guess what the driver for that was? It was goverment stimulus - not Australian government stimulus (that strongly underpinned the domestic economy), but Chinese government stimulus in the form of a stimulus package around two-thirds the size of the entire Australian economy. The collapsing Australian resource sector literally roared back to life on government spending.

So the whole point of the stimulus was to nip recession in the bud. This it achieved and almost certainly prevented an otherwise nasty outcome from which we would still be struggling to recover from today.
So when it was that the Labor government wiped out our surplus on cash hand outs and failed, ill conceived and implemented 'stimulus' programs, many a sensible economist wondered why? Surely that surplus would be better used to stimulate a slowing economy, which was not our circumstances then?
This is a broad, deep and somewhat complex area here. It goes to the nature of the the thing we choose to call "money". I don't really want to lead off on huge tangents. An Australian government budget surplus cannot really be "wiped out" in the sense that there isn't really anything there to begin with. Our governments surpluses and deficits are accounting identities - like money itself, they are an abstract concept. There is no big vault with mountains of cash extracted from taxpayers in the catacombs beneath parliament house. The Australian dollar is a fiat currency : "fiat" being Latin for "let it be done", in reference to something being created from out of nothing. So too, out dollar is not a physical thing but an abstract concept, created from thin air whenever the Australian government (NOT state governments) net spends and "destroyed" again when they tax.

It was the stimulus that prevented the economy from overly slowing (and probably outright recessing) in the first place. Had it recessed then unemployment, mortgage forecloseure, business failure etc would have skyrocketed and the budget balance plunged into deficit anyway - this is an important point. The stimulus spending did not simply evaporate without effect.........
Retail sales were up 0.9% in August.

But that's not the point.

The point is that even in August, nine months after the stimulus packages began, we are still spending way in excess per month of what we ever did before the packages.

The graph from the ABS tells the story.

The dark trend line stops just before the first package.
Image

That money underpinned jobs in retail (our second-biggest employer by sector) and then flowed on to the rest of the economy. So too with the other stimulus measures such as the much-maligned home insulation programme and school building programme. As an aside, I can assure you that the problems surrounding both have been the subject of the most extrordinary media beat up I have ever witnessed, and I don't say that lightly. I had read many times about the phenomonen of mass hysteria, but this was the first time I had seen it in action. The facts are that the insulation programme actually made the industry safer and the school building programme has provided facilites that will be used to educate our children for decades to come - a very good investment ( as an employee of Education Queensland - at least until Newman decides to swing the axe again - I have not seen a bad job yet), while at the time protecting jobs in the construction industry, an industry that is both a large employer and vulnerable to economic shocks.

Anyhow, I have some cooking to do and a date with a bottle of sauvignon blanc. Enjoy your holidays Sexy Lady (I assume you're having some?)

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Rorschach
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Re: Surplus unlikely says Swan.

Post by Rorschach » Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:33 pm

:rofl :rofl :rofl
The facts are that the insulation programme actually made the industry safer and the school building programme has provided facilites that will be used to educate our children for decades to come
What a load of cobblers.
The program created; "cowboys," con-men and cost lives.

Oh and btw buildings do not educate children. I'd love to see a COLA educate a child, all Labor wanted was some buildings to put their names on and in the interim big advertising posters.

In NSW the cost of the program was a disgrace with rorting and over-pricing, poor planning and unnecessary structures being built instead of those needed, all overseen by 2 incompetent Labor governments.

The 2nd stimulus was completely wasted with hardly any positive impact for the economy. :roll:
DOLT - A person who is stupid and entirely tedious at the same time, like bwian. Oblivious to their own mental incapacity. On IGNORE - Warrior, mellie, Nom De Plume, FLEKTARD

Aussie

Re: Surplus unlikely says Swan.

Post by Aussie » Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:37 pm

Oh and btw buildings do not educate children.
Can't imagine why schools/universities have those useless buildings. Maybe you can tell us why they have them.

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Neferti
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Re: Surplus unlikely says Swan.

Post by Neferti » Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:42 pm

Surely, in Sunny Queensland, where it is beautiful one day and perfect the next you don't need "buildings"? :tease

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Rorschach
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Re: Surplus unlikely says Swan.

Post by Rorschach » Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:50 pm

Some people obviously stay out in the Sun too long Nef.
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IQS.RLOW
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Re: Surplus unlikely says Swan.

Post by IQS.RLOW » Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:57 pm

IQS.RLOW wrote:Some compulsory reading for lefty...if his mind is open enough to consider both sides of an equation, rather than that which conforms to his simplistic views

http://www.fee.org/files/doclib/2012111 ... Lesson.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://mises.org/books/failureofneweconomics.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You still haven't bothered to read why you are wrong, have you lefty?
Quote by Aussie: I was a long term dead beat, wife abusing, drunk, black Muslim, on the dole for decades prison escapee having been convicted of paedophilia

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Rorschach
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Re: Surplus unlikely says Swan.

Post by Rorschach » Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:35 pm

Seems LW is more a preacher-propagandist than an answerer of specific questions IQS.
Reminds me of someone.
DOLT - A person who is stupid and entirely tedious at the same time, like bwian. Oblivious to their own mental incapacity. On IGNORE - Warrior, mellie, Nom De Plume, FLEKTARD

Aussie

Re: Surplus unlikely says Swan.

Post by Aussie » Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:37 pm

'IQS got a boy friend. IQS got a boy friend. IQS got a boy friend. IQS got a boy friend. IQS got a boy friend. IQS got a boy friend. IQS got a boy friend. IQS got a boy friend. IQS got a boy friend. IQS got a boy friend. IQS got a boy friend. IQS got a boy friend. IQS got a boy friend. IQS got a boy friend. IQS got a boy friend.'

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