Bizarre Paradox of the 20th Century

[freediver]

No, trade/commerce freed people from the grind of survival and gave them the chance to develop beyond the basics.

Not exactly. It was the plague that did that.

[Neferti]

I thought you said it was the profit*(sic) over at OzPol


*Leadfoot meant PROPHET.

[Rorschach]

personally AiA i side with freediver a bit... they are mutually exclusive developments one doesn't necessarily have to exist for the other to.

[boxy]

We have lost quite a bit of freedom, due to our increased population density (to live in close contact with so many others, we need to make more and more rules to keep the peace).

Subsistence farming is a poverty trap which is why so many prefer urban slums over the family plot of land.

My grandfather was free to build a house, clear his land, move stock where he liked, all without needing to obtain the explicit approval of anyone else.

We've gained freedoms, we've lost others.

[TomB]

No, trade/commerce freed people from the grind of survival and gave them the chance to develop beyond the basics.

Firstly you must have a surplus commodity to trade ..... Ergo farming, minerals even craft skills are more important than trade in providing freedom.

[Rorschach]

That's a bit chicken or the egg, but I like it.

Where's the freedom in going to a place to WORK 8-15 hours a day 5-7 days a week?
One should work and live not live to work.

[TomB]

I don't see a chicken or egg statement.

If you have a surplus of food you don't have to trade it to have freedom. You can sit on your arse or do whatever you like knowing you won't starve .... Or you can trade it for bling and have a different type of freedom.

[AiA in Atlanta]

No, trade/commerce freed people from the grind of survival and gave them the chance to develop beyond the basics.

Firstly you must have a surplus commodity to trade ..... Ergo farming, minerals even craft skills are more important than trade in providing freedom.

Not arguing that point. Before farming there was no surplus but farming was possible b/c of trade: trade provided the incentive to specialize in farmed goods and to generate, you guessed it, a surplus.

[Rorschach]

I don't see a chicken or egg statement.

I do.

I also believe AiA just touched on it.

Be that as it may, freedom is not dependent on finances. Even though in today's world a great deal of it can buy individuals certain freedoms. Hardly egalitarian.

[freediver]

No, trade/commerce freed people from the grind of survival and gave them the chance to develop beyond the basics.

Firstly you must have a surplus commodity to trade ..... Ergo farming, minerals even craft skills are more important than trade in providing freedom.

Not arguing that point. Before farming there was no surplus but farming was possible b/c of trade: trade provided the incentive to specialize in farmed goods and to generate, you guessed it, a surplus.

So what did farmers do with excess before trade was invented? Burn their wheat?

Even hunter gatherer societies have surplusses and items that acts as money. If anything they have more surplus. They just can't store all their free time.