Judgement Day

[boxy]

Re: SBS doco on the battle between evolution and creationism (intelligent design) in US schools.

I've got to say, thank god for those teachers, for those scientists, for putting themselves on the line, and putting their lives on hold in order to ensure that America's children arn't taught that pseudoscience is equal the theory of natural selection and evolution.

But why hasn't there been such a battle here in Australia where we don't have such a fervent regard for a "constitution" that spells out quite specifically that religious teaching isn't to be included in the state curriculum? There are undoubtedly many Australian parents who believe in god before science... yet mostly, we submit to... I dunno... the popular theory of the day, rather than fight a loosing battle.

[freediver]

I caught most of it. I wasn't aware of the constitutional significance of intelligent design.

I can think of two reasons why the debate is not raging in Australia. One is that the government subsidises public schools, which allows them to exist. They don't do the same in the US, so almost all students attend public schools. Christian parents don't have as many options, so they try to take control of public school boards instead. The other reason is that we are more laid back. We don't have as many fundamentalists, from either side.

[boxy]

I guess you meant that they subsidise private schools?

So paying them off keeps them off the public schools back, eh

[freediver]

I guess you meant that they subsidise private schools?

I suppose so. That's what I was getting at when I said:

One is that the government subsidises public schools

So paying them off keeps them off the public schools back, eh

It's certainly cheaper than public schools. It's also fairer in my opinion. The parents get more choice, and the extra choice saves money. Otherwise society is double charging the parents of private school kids - once for taxes to pay for public schools and once for private school fees.

[mantra.]

As the Labor government has been against Creationism being taught in schools from the very beginning - they should withhold funding from those private schools teaching it today who give little or no disclosure. It is too devisive and it is intended to be - Christians against atheists. Howard allowed some fundamental US Christian group to distribute Creationism DVD's to every school in Australia - although fortunately public schools will not add Intelligent Design to their curriculum.

CHRISTIAN schools in NSW are teaching creationism or "intelligent design" with little or no monitoring of whether it is being improperly included in science classes in high schools.

The head of the NSW Board of Studies, John Bennett, told a NSW parliamentary committee yesterday that the education watchdog relied on the Christian schools network to assess whether schools kept to the NSW curriculum, which forbids the teaching of creationism in science classes.

Dr Bennett said teaching creationism was not outlawed in schools, but those that taught creationism were obliged to make clear to students that it was not part of the curriculum and could not be part of an examination assessment.

Responding to questions from a NSW Greens MP, John Kaye, he said that apart from an inspection once every five years and spot checks, the board also relied on individual complaints.

"I don't believe [improperly teaching creationism] is broadly spread," Dr Bennett said.

Creationism has been a big political issue in the US in recent years with the Christian conservative movement - closely associated with the conservative wing of the Republican Party - pushing to have it taught in schools, and treated as a defacto science.

Some US surveys show more than half of all college-educated Americans believe that the world was created less than 5000 years ago and that evolution is a fraudulent scientific theory.

An investigation is under way after a recent complaint about the teaching of creationism at one of the schools in the Christian Schools Australia network.

The executive director of Christian Schools Australia, Stephen O'Doherty, said yesterday all schools in the network met science teaching requirements set by the Board of Studies, including the teaching of evolution as a scientific theory.

"We, on behalf of the Board of Studies, conduct registration inspections on the independent schools [in our network]," he said.

But he said the syllabus stated that students should be taught the social and cultural context in which science took place.

"There's plenty of room for schools to teach ideas which go beyond science. Any school is entitled to teach outside the syllabus," Mr O'Doherty said.

He used the example of schools being able to teach Aboriginal dreamtime legends as long as they also taught the science syllabus.

Dr Kaye said such an approach was a gross misinterpretation of the flexibility the board of studies gives to schools.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/mon ... 29835.html

[Jovial Monk]

So that is why there is such a big fuss by the Lieberals and the dill Fielding about the Bill tying private school subsidies to a national curriculum. Good, hope Gillard holds out and forces the Fibs to buckle. Otherwise the govt will have $28Bn to spend on govt schools

Fielding wants creationism told & the Fibs don't want any public accounting of their alma maters:

Some 'good' families stretch credit with the school and don't pay the fees.

Some expensive schools give results no better than that from the (poorer) public schools. If this sort of information came out at this difficult time a few parents may decide to put junior into public school and the save the $15K private school fees.

So much crud fromt he Howard years to be scraped out!

[mantra.]

So much crud fromt he Howard years to be scraped out!

That's for sure. It is incredible how public schools, regardless of the decreased funding (in real terms) by Howard over the past decade - have still managed to churn out kids as bright - if not brighter than their counterparts at private schools. Maybe the barely basic conditions of public schools have produced stronger kids. The private schools have also rorted Howard's funding as well - that was picked up earlier in the year. Hopefully Rudd will do something eventually, but at the moment the government has promised not to do anything. This has amounted to millions in overpayments to Christian & private schools - yet they're still crying poor.

[Jovial Monk]

Well, now that the private schools have to be accountable--thanks Julia!--Creationism/Intelligent Design will have to be taught, if at all, in religiuous classes (where it belongs!)

People might also see HM money the school has got, whether they let the 'best' families stretch credit in never pay the fees and they might also see the $15Kpa private school produces results no better than a good PS and decide to save the $15K per annum.

Hopefully, this will start Exclusive Brethren schools either having to open up to non EB students or have to use their own money to teach their twisted faith. One area where I have a difference with our PM: the EB should have been investigated: pricks split families if a parent or kid leaves the cult and they deny tertiary education to the EB kids, bith bloody big no nos in my book! I don't give a flying fuck what their beliefs are--I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and so eat pasta at least once a week --but don't go splitting up families or denying education!

[mantra.]

Well, now that the private schools have to be accountable--thanks Julia!--Creationism/Intelligent Design will have to be taught, if at all, in religiuous classes (where it belongs!)

People might also see HM money the school has got, whether they let the 'best' families stretch credit in never pay the fees and they might also see the $15Kpa private school produces results no better than a good PS and decide to save the $15K per annum.

Hopefully, this will start Exclusive Brethren schools either having to open up to non EB students or have to use their own money to teach their twisted faith. One area where I have a difference with our PM: the EB should have been investigated: pricks split families if a parent or kid leaves the cult and they deny tertiary education to the EB kids, bith bloody big no nos in my book! I don't give a flying fuck what their beliefs are--I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and so eat pasta at least once a week --but don't go splitting up families or denying education!

Unbelievable Dita. My thoughts exactly.

One of my pet hates is EB - a feral cult which should receive no support from the government.

[Jovial Monk]

I guess you meant that they subsidise private schools?

I suppose so. That's what I was getting at when I said:

One is that the government subsidises public schools

So paying them off keeps them off the public schools back, eh

It's certainly cheaper than public schools. It's also fairer in my opinion. The parents get more choice, and the extra choice saves money. Otherwise society is double charging the parents of private school kids - once for taxes to pay for public schools and once for private school fees.

It is only double charging--your words--SOME parents.

Other parents get slugged by the GST, which hits poorer families much more than richer ones, then have to pay tax to have the rich brats sent to a private school.

A lot of private schools are religious, so we are subsidising religion (and the schools probably pay no tax as a religious institution.) A lot of snobbery is taught at those schools which, despite receiving subsidies, do not take intellectually backwards kids. these schools tend to send people to learn to become lawyers, investment bankers etc instead of the scientists and engineers and doctors that we need. And a lot of these schools do not get better results than a public school.

At a public school if you do well you have achieved that, you may have had to overcome some obstacles. Private school students get coached intensively so they get good marks and the schools can enroll more suckers but they then explode at Uni or at work.

Our public schools need money spent on them: too many kids still goto to temporary classrooms with no insulation and poor heating/cooling. Fuck the private schools!