Iraq Holds the elections this forum opposed...again.

[JW Frogen]

If it was not for the brewer my big bang would be making China look like Mother Teresa's vagina.

[crazychemist]

Frogen,

With all due respect you sound like a naive redneck..

"Ah those poor iraqies couldnt think for dem selves, gee, lets go and save them" Who the fuck are you trying to kid. Obviously only yourself.

I refuse to give the fucking yanks the credit for bringing democracy to IRAQ.

They invaded the country.. allowed thugs to rob, museums, hospitals etc etc. Caused the largest mass migration modern history has ever encountered. And you are telling me they did them a favour.. Think please.. For once.

Iraqies are fixing up the situation never the yanks.. They took hold the place and provided security largely via resistance fighters that fought the americans in the first place.

America is responisble to +1mil death tolls (and dont give me this crap they cannot prove it) they do +200 missions per day and you can tell me not a single person dies in each one of those.

and you are telling me they did them a favour.
Iraqies could have taken out saddam sooner or later, however economic sanctions for the 10 years before the invasion, took out the large majority of middle class iraqies that could do shit..

peace.

[JW Frogen]

Sorry, but it is a simple fact that without liberation there would be no democracy in Iraq. (I too have many issues with occupation but this does not change that basic fact. No liberation, no democracy.) The elected government has said as much, the Kurds have run ads thanking Americans for such.

It is only with the surge and the training, and huge monetary assistance provided by the US that Iraq could stablise enough of the country to establish a democratic state.

Once again the elected government has said as much.

The notion Iraqis would have overthrown Saddam by themselves is naive in the extream and an rude assualt against the history of the entire region. Their last attempt, when Saddam was even weaker in the post defeat choas of Gulf War I ended in complete defeat until the US and UK intervened once again, to save the Kurds.

Your alternative, leave Iraqi under a tyranny clearly the majority did not want to live under and then when they struggle, after liberation, against one of the most horrific insurgencies the world has known to vote, write their own constitution, and then vote three times more to solidify that democracy (risking far more than you ever have or will for anyone’s freedom anywhere) you dismiss their efforts simply because they came at the risk of the US.

In a way you are racist, you can not believe in a democracy most Iraqis believe in because the US brought it to life, Iraqi opinion does not matter, the little brown sand people are irrelevant if most agree with the US.

This position not only holds no dignity for the concept of freedom writ large but also reveals a shallow nihilism, which hints that you do not even understand the nature of your own freedom.

A freedom I am sure would be better bestowed on some brave Iraqi democrat than some jaded Western brat.

[TomB]

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

[JW Frogen]

Indeed the insurgents have killed a lot of Iraqis, as did the tyranny you would have left them under, which is probably why most risked their lives to take up the US offer to establish a democracy and some day stop the decades of killing.

[TomB]

Oh look deja vu

Ah yes first we play the denigration card.

In a way you are racist, .....

Then we play the you are a coward card because you've never fought for democracy, which is of course a complete straw man argument.

Look, here it comes.

A freedom I am sure would be better bestowed on some brave Iraqi democrat than some jaded Western brat.

Aah, as predicted.

[JW Frogen]

The reponse is as monolothic as the oppostion to the war.

One more predictable anti war attribute is being more concerned with editing Frogen (or the opposing view) than defending your position (such as it can be called that) on Iraq, hey Tom.

Go figure.

Sort of like Jane Fonda in Vietnam, her career needed all those anti war moviegoers and who cared about the people of South Vietnam anyway?

It is rarely about Iraq or Iraqis with the anti war crowd, it is always about the anti war crowd's personal fweeelings and nwweeds.

[Ethnic]

crazychemist, you got the crazy part right. What a load of shit.

Tom B, try not to rely on tinfoil hat websites in future.

[Jovial Monk]

When are we going to invade Zimbabwe? The poor fluffy bunnies there are starving and dying of cholera.

Oh, I forgot, Zimbabwe has no oil.

[JW Frogen]

Neither did Korea, Vietnam, Somalia, Kosovo, Afghanistan.

But they had strategic interests important to the security of the US and her alliances, Zimbabwe does not.

Idealism writ large is simply another formula for inaction strategic need without idealism is simply conquest.

The US combines the best of both concepts more often than not, certainly more often than any other power in human history.