Liars, Lunatics or Liaisons

[Frogen The Longer]

Pierre.....I have read this sort of stuff before. Are you the illiterate twin brother of Wally Raffles???

What say ye Frogen?

I say Pierre is a cabbie.

[boxy]

sort of begs the question... did he become more "conscious" after his revelation, or just find a different way of looking at the world... no more, or less valid than the one he held before. He seems to have been a perfectly fine individual before his "awakening", he just changed his mind about a few things. Nothing all that mystical about it. That's what philosophy and self reflection is about.

Yes he did become more "conscious" after his revelation and yes he did just find a different way of looking at the world and no it wasn't more or less valid than the one he held before. The important thing that is learnt from such a revelation is that the "normal" consciousness is not absolute or the only one. Once this is understood experimentally a person is then open in a way which was not possible previously. This is what Aldous Huxley was alluding to in his "Doors of Perception". It is also true that reading or talking about these altered states of consciousness can not transmit its reality in the same way that a man born blind cannot have anything but a missunderstanding of what it is to see.
A person who has been opened in this way is extreamly vulnerable to manipulation and abuse as well as self delusion. Those of you who have no experience of these things no doubt see examples of this both in organised religion as well as in the "lunatic fringe". More later.
P.S. I haven't taken anything other than a double Black Label JW for more than 30 years.

How does this being "opened up" to delusions make someone more conscious? I see no reason that "spiritual" experiences are necessary to understand the fact that much of our perceptions are less than absolute. Science can show quite clearly, and with evidence behind it, that what we see is quite often not the only way to view reality. A philosophy that widens peoples perceptions through logical and evidence driven investigation of the universe is much better for "expanding the consciousness" than listening to some hippy, sitting crosslegged on the floor, waxing lyrical about how you should take his word for it that he has experienced a revelation that death is not the end... a revelation that coincidentally allays his greatest fear with a single stroke of "inspiration"!

[Outlaw Yogi]

"Are all great spiritual teachers of history liars, lunatics, or liaisons to an objectively real and attainable awakened state of human consciousness?"

Depends how you define this particular consciousness you're refering to ... I'd figure most would describe it as 'a state of mind' or similar .. maybe some might think/say 'an altered state' ... or very happy ... and some would say 'gaining knowlege/understanding ect ect.

there is a path on can follow but there are no guarantees and there are those that followed no path at all and seemingly did nothing and enlightenment just happened.

Vedic material/texts refers to this as Sahaja Yoga (spontainious union with devine) .. kundalini awakening triggers spontaniously, as opposed to via traditional asceticism.

You may have heard the first step to enlightenment is the realisation that you know nothing. Its true.
If you genuinely have your heart set on attaining enlightenment, then you must be prepared to go crazy/nuts and not worry that people are going to think you are crazy/nuts.

Y'know the phrase ...

ignorance is bliss
knowledge is power
and with power comes responsibility

.. well that's sometimes true too .. someone suffering infomation overload about to mentaly burn out would get 'ignorance is bliss'

Remember Siddhartha guatamo's/Buddha's most obvious realisation? ... 'everything that lives suffers' .. so don't worry about it and just get on with or used to life.

I've had experiences I can describe in minute detail but not explain in rational terms, but I am willing to accept it may take a state of psychosis (even if only subtle) to percieve the experience.

As for material, I personally found the Tibetan book of the Dead the MOST revealing .. although most would need a sanskrit to english dictionary .. the Cologne is old but I think the most accurate.
It explains that everything depends on belief.

[AiA in Atlanta]

As for material, I personally found the Tibetan book of the Dead the MOST revealing .. although most would need a sanskrit to english dictionary .. the Cologne is old but I think the most accurate.
It explains that everything depends on belief.

The Tibetan monks have a singular great achievement: they spend a 1000 years exploring the consciousness.

[Outlaw Yogi]

Tibetan book of the dead is not Buddhist, but pre-buddhist 'Bon' practiced by Bon-po.
Tibetan buddhism isn't recognised as buddhist by any other buddhist countries.
Tibetan buddhism absorbed/appropriated bon religion [eg Lamaism] and exterminated Bon-po.
Tibetan buddhists' claim Tibetan people were fierce warriors till pacified by buddhism 1000 years ago.
Its a bull$#!+ story. 400 years ago a monarch married a buddhist from another country.
She was determined Tibet would become buddhist and so brought in her missionary monks who initiated
catholic inquisition style enforcement of buddhism and the elimination of bon-po.
Buddhist monks were still skining people alive amongst other wonderful tortures in the 1920s
30 rich families were Tibet's aristocracy and slavery/surfdom was still legal in Tibet untill the (1950 i think) Chinese invasion. Buddhist monks were sometimes slave owners.
I could keep slagging off, but its probably better if you discover and check things out for yourself.
Don't be fooled by Tibetan's victim status, tibetan buddhism's dark side is ..... um ... well ... sinister.

[AiA in Atlanta]

Tibetan book of the dead is not Buddhist, but pre-buddhist 'Bon' practiced by Bon-po.
Tibetan buddhism isn't recognised as buddhist by any other buddhist countries.
Tibetan buddhism absorbed/appropriated bon religion [eg Lamaism] and exterminated Bon-po.
Tibetan buddhists' claim Tibetan people were fierce warriors till pacified by buddhism 1000 years ago.
Its a bull$#!+ story. 400 years ago a monarch married a buddhist from another country.
She was determined Tibet would become buddhist and so brought in her missionary monks who initiated
catholic inquisition style enforcement of buddhism and the elimination of bon-po.
Buddhist monks were still skining people alive amongst other wonderful tortures in the 1920s
30 rich families were Tibet's aristocracy and slavery/surfdom was still legal in Tibet untill the (1950 i think) Chinese invasion. Buddhist monks were sometimes slave owners.
I could keep slagging off, but its probably better if you discover and check things out for yourself.
Don't be fooled by Tibetan's victim status, tibetan buddhism's dark side is ..... um ... well ... sinister.

That is all very interesting but it doesn't take away from their accomplishment.

[Outlaw Yogi]

How could Tibetan monks have ..

spend a 1000 years exploring the consciousness

when Tibetan buddhism itself is only 400 years old? ... unless of course you mean/t they devote many of their own future incarnations to this singular purpose. Which would be an extremely hard ambition to re-live upto, seeing as almost everyone forgets previous incarnations.

Anyway the very reason Tibetan monks feel free to indulge in torture, slavery, peodophilia and/or virtually any inhume act imaginable is because the Tibetan book of the Dead explains how to evade retributive karma phalam.
Karma in sanskrit means 'action' and phalam means 'fruits'.
Action fruits .. or fruits of action ... I suspect inspired the christian phrase 'reap what ye sow'.

Tibetan book of the Dead in the hands of a sociopath is rather dangerous material, and the instruction on how to evade karma phalam is what I think Hitler's SS desperately desired and is why they collaborated with Tibetan monks despite their racist dogmas.

Righto .. now its Judeaism's turn.
Looks like 'enlightenment' is undesirable to Israeli rabbis.

Rabbis in Israel warn Jews not to rent or sell property to non-Jews
http://insidethemiddleeast.blogs.cnn.co ... -non-jews/

"In answer to many questions, we reply that it is prohibited by the Torah to sell a house or field in Israel to a gentile," the letter reads.

[Outlaw Yogi]

Back to Tibetan buddhism for a bit .. Re: their accomplishment ...

... on Yantra may interest you AiA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yantra

[AiA in Atlanta]

Tibetan buddhism itself is only 400 years old

You are wrong there.

[Outlaw Yogi]

.. meaning you accept the fierce warriors pacified by buddhism 1000 years ago version of events? .. or something else entirely?

Anyway I popped in to slag off "the religion of peace"
Woman whipped: YouTube video from Sudan sparks outrage
http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/ne ... s-outrage/

A guard, dressed in blue uniform, is seen to be laughing as he observes the beating from the sidelines eventually deciding to take part in administering the lashings.

The nature of the woman's crime remain unclear, rumours across the internet suggest that she was being punished for wearing pants.

During the video a guard says that she will have to serve two years in prison if she doesn't accept the 53 lashings.

According to reports, flogging is a common punishment in Sudan. The circulation of this video has sparked protests locally and outrage globally.