Defence advised to walk away from french Subs
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Re: Defence advised to walk away from french Subs
Wow! I sure am glad someone else is trying to figure this one out!!!! Australia sure dug itself into a medieval hole when it turned its back on developing a nuclear capability.
$80bn future submarine program runs aground, again
MARITIME AND UNDERSEA WARFARE|By: Stephen Kuper 15 JANUARY 2020
The Australian National Audit Office (ANAO) has released a scathing review into the nation’s largest defence program – the $80 billion Attack Class submarine program – revealing myriad challenges to delivering the program, with serious concerns about the viability of the contract and Australia’s future submarine capability.
It is the largest defence acquisition project in the history of the nation, but the apparently $50 billion project to replace the ageing Collins Class submarines with 12 regionally-superior submarines is in deep water.
Concerns about cost, capability and delivery time frame are again making headlines following the release of a troubling report from the Australian National Audit Office (ANAO) titled Future Submarine – Transition to design, https://www.anao.gov.au/work/performanc ... -to-design
building on the fallout from a fiery exchange at Senate estimates in late-2019.
Future Submarine Program manager Rear Admiral Greg Sammut explained to the Senate estimates hearing that the 'out-turned' cost of Australia's future fleet of submarines was estimated to be around $80 billion – a figure frequently cited but subsequently rubbished by former defence minister Christopher Pyne and other Defence officials.
Further compounding the costs associated with the acquisition is the continuing concerns about the capability of the proposed vessels, with many expressing, often vocally, concerns about the obsolescence of lead-acid batteries and the conventional power plant expected to power the vessels out to the 2080s.
When then prime minister Malcolm Turnbull announced the DCNS, now Naval Group, conventionally-powered Shortfin Barracuda, now the Attack Class, as the successful design for the hotly contested SEA 1000 Future Submarine program in April 2016, it seemed as if the disastrous procurement of the Collins Class would be put aside.
Now, the ANAO presents a different, yet concerning picture of Australia's largest defence project and while it isn't all bad news for the Attack Class program, pointed questions still need to be asked about the tactical and strategic viability and value-for-money of the conventionally-powered submarines into the future.
Don't be too harsh, Defence got some things right
Before rushing to judgement, it is critical to identify that the ANAO does recognise that Defence effectively designed the competitive evaluation process for the selection of the future submarine partner – further to this, the ANAO report accepts that "Defence designed a fit-for-purpose process to evaluate and select an international partner for Australia’s Future Submarine program".
As is well documented, ANAO analysis concluded:
"Defence determined that the Future Submarine would be designed and built by a proven submarine designer with recent experience in designing and building diesel-electric submarines. Defence analysis concluded that Direction de Constructions Navales Services (DCNS) of France (now Naval Group), ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems GmbH (TKMS) of Germany and the government of Japan were the only viable potential international partners to meet this requirement, and which could proceed to the competitive evaluation process."
Of note is that Defence actively considered engaging ship builders in the US and UK, respectively – however the prospective partners were unable to participate as a result of their own respective submarine build programs.
The ANAO also states that Defence designed an effective and 'fit-for-purpose' framework for evaluating the competing designs and the capacity of the respective partners to support the Commonwealth on the Future Submarine program.
This CEP framework focused on five key criteria that would inform Defence's decision as to the successful partner, which ANAO considered covering "a broad and appropriate range of issues" including:
Capability;
Cost;
Delivery schedule;
Program implementation (including sustainment and Australian industry involvement); and
Risk.
As part of this, ANAO recognises that "Defence effectively implemented the competitive evaluation process to select an international partner for the Future Submarine program".
Building on this, ANAO revealed that the entire CEP process and the final conclusion in selecting DCNS was reviewed by a third party to ensure the integrity of the process – this review was conducted by two former senior US submarine program managers, who also served as chief engineers in the US Navy.
This review concluded, "The work of the competitive evaluation process is competent, diligent, expert and consistent. It is sufficiently disciplined to withstand scrutiny and is well documented. The competitive evaluation process to identify the right international partner will be successful in finding the right answer."
But! There were some mistakes
Despite Defence achieving some success throughout the CEP process, there were some blunders throughout the CEP – namely: "The competitive evaluation process was not aimed at eliciting and assessing a full design for the Future Submarine, or identifying firm cost and schedule data. These processes will be undertaken with the successful international partner subsequent to the competitive evaluation."
One thing this does reveal, albeit without specifically stating it, is that the time frame for capability definition through to the CEP phase is too slow, results in a rush to 'cut steel' once the probity phase of the program is complete – this also exposes the entire project to risk beyond the standard risk management profile for similarly sized programs.
This is reinforced by Centre Alliance senator Rex Patrick who told Defence Connect, "Defence started this project years late. When it did start there was significant delay in negotiating the strategic partnering agreement with Naval Group. They then re-scheduled critical milestone dates in the contract and have not met them.
"I support the ANAO's view that the project risk is high to extreme. Historically, Defence projects that have become projects of concern have done so because Defence had not fully appreciated the risk or had approached it too optimistically. Defence has not met its obligations to mitigate that clear risk. They need to have a fall back plan.
"The fact that the plan for the key issue of detailed design work being done in Australia hasn’t been delivered is a major concern. There was a commitment from government to have the design work transitioned to Australia. This commitment must be met."
Another bump in the road – cost increases and delayed construction
As part of the Senate estimates hearing, RADM Sammut revealed that the total cost for the turned out vessels was now estimated to be $145 billion, bringing the total SEA 1000 program cost to around $225 billion by the time of the vessel's planned retirement some time in the 2080s.
"It is only an estimate of the sustainment of the fleet, we are designing the sub today," RADM Sammut explained at the time.
This cost explosion is further exacerbated by an apparent 'slip' in the planned commencement date for construction of the lead boat, HMAS Attack, which was widely publicised as 2022-23 and has now subsequently been pushed back to the 2024 time frame – further exposing Australia's ageing Collins Class vessels to potential adversary over match.
RADM Sammut was quick to explain this away, like a skilled operator, informing Senate estimates that the slated time frame was referencing the standing up of construction personnel, tools, infrastructure, processes and equipment to commence the construction of HMAS Attack's pressure hull in 2024.
These bombshells come following a revelation earlier in the year that the cancellation fees associated with the SEA 1000 program amounted to $404 million – which seems like a steal when measured against the ballooning costs associated with the program.
Additionally, it has been revealed that while the design phase was behind schedule, to the tune of nine months, ANAO stated:
"The program is currently experiencing a nine-month delay in the design phase against Defence’s pre-design contract estimates, and two major contracted milestones were extended. As a result, Defence cannot demonstrate that its expenditure of A$396 million on design of the Future Submarine has been fully effective in achieving the program’s two major design milestones to date. Defence expenditure on design represents some 47 per cent of all program expenditure to 30 September 2019."
Additionally, ANAO states, rather concerningly: "Defence’s overall assessment of risk for the Future Submarine Program is ‘high’ and Defence has adopted relevant risk mitigation strategies, including the long-term partnership with Naval Group. This key relationship is at a relatively early stage and the parties’ active management of both specific issues and the partnership is essential for effective risk management and program success."
This was reinforced by opposition defence spokesman Richard Marles, who stated in The Australian that "on all three measures of this program — on time of delivery, on the cost of the project, and on the amount of the Australian content — the numbers are all going the wrong way".
The time for plug and play construction?
To contrast the costs associated with Australia's future Attack Class submarines of between $4.2 and $6 billion per unit (including infrastructure development, research and development costs).
This is compared with the unit cost of the French Barracudas of approximately US$1.4 billion ($2 billion) per unit (based on 2013 prices), which raises questions about the validity and cost-benefit analysis conducted on doubling down with early-20th century technology.
Contemporary submarine construction, like contemporary naval and civilian shipbuilding, is done predominantly in a modular, 'block build' fashion, enabling an easier integration for technology development and enhancements throughout the build phase – what this means is a stark difference between the broader capabilities and technology in vessels over the life of the build phase.
The long lead-time prior to the commencement of the construction process provides a number of additional opportunities, particularly for Australia's Attack Class submarines.
In particular, to avoid the costly and time consuming redesign and conversion phase, purchase the standard Barracuda Class design and make the necessary modifications to incorporate the US-designed weapons systems and combat systems without reinventing the wheel.
Doing so builds on the technological and industrial lessons learned by Naval Group throughout the same process getting Suffren to the launch stage – it wouldn't serve to hinder the build process for Australian industry but could conceivably serve to reduce risk for Australia as a result of minimal complex design changes.
Alternatively, Australia could engage Naval Group to build the initial vessel or first block, while embedding Australian industry in Cherbourg, while giving the local industry the time to stand up the necessary capability to support and block build all but the reactor module insertion.
Additionally, it would provide the opportunity for Australian industry to bring the phase forward by using Australian workers to build the full submarines while drawing on French nuclear propulsion expertise to serve as "technology insert" experts to install the nuclear reactors for the Australian submarines.
The long lead-time for this development would also provide an opportunity for Australia to embed both civilian and military nuclear experts and submariners in the nuclear industries and nuclear-powered submarine fleets of key allies, including France, the US and UK, to develop the expertise and skills required to safely, efficiently and effectively operate nuclear-powered submarines.
This stubborn insistence on consistently reinventing the wheel and calling it progress will serve to challenge the long-term capability of Australia's submarine fleet while also cementing a 20th century focused industrial capacity.
However, it doesn't have to be this way, as Australia's recently initiated design clarification process, long lead-time for construction and international partnerships provide the opportunity to reset the paradigm.
Questions to be asked
As an island nation, Australia is defined by its relationship and access to the ocean, with strategic sea-lines-of-communication supporting over 90 per cent of global trade, a result of the cost effective and reliable nature of sea transport.
Indo-Pacific Asia is at the epicentre of the global maritime trade, with about US$5 trillion worth of trade flowing through the South China Sea and the strategic waterways and choke points of south-east Asia annually.
While the Indian Ocean and its critical global sea-lines-of-communication are responsible for more than 80 per cent of the world's seaborne trade in critical energy supplies, namely oil and natural gas, which serve as the lifeblood of any advanced economy.
Submarines are critical to the nation's ability to protect these strategically vital waterways and key naval assets, as well as providing a viable tactical and strategic deterrent and ensure the nation's enduring national and economic security – recognising this, the previously posed questions will serve as conversation starting points.
However, given the geographic area of responsibility Australia will become increasingly responsible for and dependent on, is the RAN and the recapitalisation and conventionally-focused modernisation program for Australia's submarine fleet enough for Australia to maintain its qualitative and quantitative lead over regional peers?
Traditionally, Australia has focused on a platform-for-platform acquisition program – focused on replacing, modernising or upgrading key capabilities on a like-for-like basis without a guiding policy, doctrine or strategy, limiting the overall effectiveness, survivability and capability of the RAN.
https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/marit ... ound-again
$80bn future submarine program runs aground, again
MARITIME AND UNDERSEA WARFARE|By: Stephen Kuper 15 JANUARY 2020
The Australian National Audit Office (ANAO) has released a scathing review into the nation’s largest defence program – the $80 billion Attack Class submarine program – revealing myriad challenges to delivering the program, with serious concerns about the viability of the contract and Australia’s future submarine capability.
It is the largest defence acquisition project in the history of the nation, but the apparently $50 billion project to replace the ageing Collins Class submarines with 12 regionally-superior submarines is in deep water.
Concerns about cost, capability and delivery time frame are again making headlines following the release of a troubling report from the Australian National Audit Office (ANAO) titled Future Submarine – Transition to design, https://www.anao.gov.au/work/performanc ... -to-design
building on the fallout from a fiery exchange at Senate estimates in late-2019.
Future Submarine Program manager Rear Admiral Greg Sammut explained to the Senate estimates hearing that the 'out-turned' cost of Australia's future fleet of submarines was estimated to be around $80 billion – a figure frequently cited but subsequently rubbished by former defence minister Christopher Pyne and other Defence officials.
Further compounding the costs associated with the acquisition is the continuing concerns about the capability of the proposed vessels, with many expressing, often vocally, concerns about the obsolescence of lead-acid batteries and the conventional power plant expected to power the vessels out to the 2080s.
When then prime minister Malcolm Turnbull announced the DCNS, now Naval Group, conventionally-powered Shortfin Barracuda, now the Attack Class, as the successful design for the hotly contested SEA 1000 Future Submarine program in April 2016, it seemed as if the disastrous procurement of the Collins Class would be put aside.
Now, the ANAO presents a different, yet concerning picture of Australia's largest defence project and while it isn't all bad news for the Attack Class program, pointed questions still need to be asked about the tactical and strategic viability and value-for-money of the conventionally-powered submarines into the future.
Don't be too harsh, Defence got some things right
Before rushing to judgement, it is critical to identify that the ANAO does recognise that Defence effectively designed the competitive evaluation process for the selection of the future submarine partner – further to this, the ANAO report accepts that "Defence designed a fit-for-purpose process to evaluate and select an international partner for Australia’s Future Submarine program".
As is well documented, ANAO analysis concluded:
"Defence determined that the Future Submarine would be designed and built by a proven submarine designer with recent experience in designing and building diesel-electric submarines. Defence analysis concluded that Direction de Constructions Navales Services (DCNS) of France (now Naval Group), ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems GmbH (TKMS) of Germany and the government of Japan were the only viable potential international partners to meet this requirement, and which could proceed to the competitive evaluation process."
Of note is that Defence actively considered engaging ship builders in the US and UK, respectively – however the prospective partners were unable to participate as a result of their own respective submarine build programs.
The ANAO also states that Defence designed an effective and 'fit-for-purpose' framework for evaluating the competing designs and the capacity of the respective partners to support the Commonwealth on the Future Submarine program.
This CEP framework focused on five key criteria that would inform Defence's decision as to the successful partner, which ANAO considered covering "a broad and appropriate range of issues" including:
Capability;
Cost;
Delivery schedule;
Program implementation (including sustainment and Australian industry involvement); and
Risk.
As part of this, ANAO recognises that "Defence effectively implemented the competitive evaluation process to select an international partner for the Future Submarine program".
Building on this, ANAO revealed that the entire CEP process and the final conclusion in selecting DCNS was reviewed by a third party to ensure the integrity of the process – this review was conducted by two former senior US submarine program managers, who also served as chief engineers in the US Navy.
This review concluded, "The work of the competitive evaluation process is competent, diligent, expert and consistent. It is sufficiently disciplined to withstand scrutiny and is well documented. The competitive evaluation process to identify the right international partner will be successful in finding the right answer."
But! There were some mistakes
Despite Defence achieving some success throughout the CEP process, there were some blunders throughout the CEP – namely: "The competitive evaluation process was not aimed at eliciting and assessing a full design for the Future Submarine, or identifying firm cost and schedule data. These processes will be undertaken with the successful international partner subsequent to the competitive evaluation."
One thing this does reveal, albeit without specifically stating it, is that the time frame for capability definition through to the CEP phase is too slow, results in a rush to 'cut steel' once the probity phase of the program is complete – this also exposes the entire project to risk beyond the standard risk management profile for similarly sized programs.
This is reinforced by Centre Alliance senator Rex Patrick who told Defence Connect, "Defence started this project years late. When it did start there was significant delay in negotiating the strategic partnering agreement with Naval Group. They then re-scheduled critical milestone dates in the contract and have not met them.
"I support the ANAO's view that the project risk is high to extreme. Historically, Defence projects that have become projects of concern have done so because Defence had not fully appreciated the risk or had approached it too optimistically. Defence has not met its obligations to mitigate that clear risk. They need to have a fall back plan.
"The fact that the plan for the key issue of detailed design work being done in Australia hasn’t been delivered is a major concern. There was a commitment from government to have the design work transitioned to Australia. This commitment must be met."
Another bump in the road – cost increases and delayed construction
As part of the Senate estimates hearing, RADM Sammut revealed that the total cost for the turned out vessels was now estimated to be $145 billion, bringing the total SEA 1000 program cost to around $225 billion by the time of the vessel's planned retirement some time in the 2080s.
"It is only an estimate of the sustainment of the fleet, we are designing the sub today," RADM Sammut explained at the time.
This cost explosion is further exacerbated by an apparent 'slip' in the planned commencement date for construction of the lead boat, HMAS Attack, which was widely publicised as 2022-23 and has now subsequently been pushed back to the 2024 time frame – further exposing Australia's ageing Collins Class vessels to potential adversary over match.
RADM Sammut was quick to explain this away, like a skilled operator, informing Senate estimates that the slated time frame was referencing the standing up of construction personnel, tools, infrastructure, processes and equipment to commence the construction of HMAS Attack's pressure hull in 2024.
These bombshells come following a revelation earlier in the year that the cancellation fees associated with the SEA 1000 program amounted to $404 million – which seems like a steal when measured against the ballooning costs associated with the program.
Additionally, it has been revealed that while the design phase was behind schedule, to the tune of nine months, ANAO stated:
"The program is currently experiencing a nine-month delay in the design phase against Defence’s pre-design contract estimates, and two major contracted milestones were extended. As a result, Defence cannot demonstrate that its expenditure of A$396 million on design of the Future Submarine has been fully effective in achieving the program’s two major design milestones to date. Defence expenditure on design represents some 47 per cent of all program expenditure to 30 September 2019."
Additionally, ANAO states, rather concerningly: "Defence’s overall assessment of risk for the Future Submarine Program is ‘high’ and Defence has adopted relevant risk mitigation strategies, including the long-term partnership with Naval Group. This key relationship is at a relatively early stage and the parties’ active management of both specific issues and the partnership is essential for effective risk management and program success."
This was reinforced by opposition defence spokesman Richard Marles, who stated in The Australian that "on all three measures of this program — on time of delivery, on the cost of the project, and on the amount of the Australian content — the numbers are all going the wrong way".
The time for plug and play construction?
To contrast the costs associated with Australia's future Attack Class submarines of between $4.2 and $6 billion per unit (including infrastructure development, research and development costs).
This is compared with the unit cost of the French Barracudas of approximately US$1.4 billion ($2 billion) per unit (based on 2013 prices), which raises questions about the validity and cost-benefit analysis conducted on doubling down with early-20th century technology.
Contemporary submarine construction, like contemporary naval and civilian shipbuilding, is done predominantly in a modular, 'block build' fashion, enabling an easier integration for technology development and enhancements throughout the build phase – what this means is a stark difference between the broader capabilities and technology in vessels over the life of the build phase.
The long lead-time prior to the commencement of the construction process provides a number of additional opportunities, particularly for Australia's Attack Class submarines.
In particular, to avoid the costly and time consuming redesign and conversion phase, purchase the standard Barracuda Class design and make the necessary modifications to incorporate the US-designed weapons systems and combat systems without reinventing the wheel.
Doing so builds on the technological and industrial lessons learned by Naval Group throughout the same process getting Suffren to the launch stage – it wouldn't serve to hinder the build process for Australian industry but could conceivably serve to reduce risk for Australia as a result of minimal complex design changes.
Alternatively, Australia could engage Naval Group to build the initial vessel or first block, while embedding Australian industry in Cherbourg, while giving the local industry the time to stand up the necessary capability to support and block build all but the reactor module insertion.
Additionally, it would provide the opportunity for Australian industry to bring the phase forward by using Australian workers to build the full submarines while drawing on French nuclear propulsion expertise to serve as "technology insert" experts to install the nuclear reactors for the Australian submarines.
The long lead-time for this development would also provide an opportunity for Australia to embed both civilian and military nuclear experts and submariners in the nuclear industries and nuclear-powered submarine fleets of key allies, including France, the US and UK, to develop the expertise and skills required to safely, efficiently and effectively operate nuclear-powered submarines.
This stubborn insistence on consistently reinventing the wheel and calling it progress will serve to challenge the long-term capability of Australia's submarine fleet while also cementing a 20th century focused industrial capacity.
However, it doesn't have to be this way, as Australia's recently initiated design clarification process, long lead-time for construction and international partnerships provide the opportunity to reset the paradigm.
Questions to be asked
As an island nation, Australia is defined by its relationship and access to the ocean, with strategic sea-lines-of-communication supporting over 90 per cent of global trade, a result of the cost effective and reliable nature of sea transport.
Indo-Pacific Asia is at the epicentre of the global maritime trade, with about US$5 trillion worth of trade flowing through the South China Sea and the strategic waterways and choke points of south-east Asia annually.
While the Indian Ocean and its critical global sea-lines-of-communication are responsible for more than 80 per cent of the world's seaborne trade in critical energy supplies, namely oil and natural gas, which serve as the lifeblood of any advanced economy.
Submarines are critical to the nation's ability to protect these strategically vital waterways and key naval assets, as well as providing a viable tactical and strategic deterrent and ensure the nation's enduring national and economic security – recognising this, the previously posed questions will serve as conversation starting points.
However, given the geographic area of responsibility Australia will become increasingly responsible for and dependent on, is the RAN and the recapitalisation and conventionally-focused modernisation program for Australia's submarine fleet enough for Australia to maintain its qualitative and quantitative lead over regional peers?
Traditionally, Australia has focused on a platform-for-platform acquisition program – focused on replacing, modernising or upgrading key capabilities on a like-for-like basis without a guiding policy, doctrine or strategy, limiting the overall effectiveness, survivability and capability of the RAN.
https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/marit ... ound-again
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Re: Defence advised to walk away from french Subs
But defence says, "She'll be right!!!".
Defence leadership responds to troubling ANAO sub report
By: Stephen Kuper MARITIME AND UNDERSEA WARFARE|17 JANUARY 2020
Naval-Group-Attack-Class-Submarine
Greg Moriarty, Secretary of the Department of Defence; Chief of Defence, General Angus Campbell, AO, DSC; Chief of Navy, Vice Admiral Mike Noonan, AO; and Tony Dalton, Deputy Secretary National Naval Shipbuilding have responded to the latest ANAO report into the SEA 1000 program.
It is the largest defence acquisition project in the history of the nation, but the apparently $50 billion project to replace the ageing Collins Class submarines with 12 regionally-superior submarines is in deep water.
Concerns about cost, capability and delivery time frame are again making headlines following the release of a troubling report from the Australian National Audit Office (ANAO) titled Future Submarine – Transition to design, building on the fallout from a fiery exchange at Senate estimates in late-2019.
To this end, Greg Moriarty, Secretary of the Department of Defence; Chief of Defence, General Angus Campbell, AO, DSC; Chief of Navy, Vice Admiral Mike Noonan, AO; and Tony Dalton, Deputy Secretary National Naval Shipbuilding have issued a rebuke to statements made in the media.
"Australia is fully committed to working with France and Naval Group to deliver the Attack Class Submarine fleet, which remains a strategically vital capability for our Defence Force into the future," the joint media statement articulates.
"The ANAO has previously reported that Defence effectively designed and implemented the process to select an international partner for the Attack Class Submarine Program (ANAO Report No.48 2016-17).
"Through a robust and comprehensive selection process, Defence determined that Naval Group was the most suitable partner to design and deliver a regionally superior submarine that will best meet our demanding capability requirements. Nothing has altered this assessment. Defence stands by this judgement."
Addressing concerns about Defence's requirements of "high levels of design maturity" for the successful design, Naval Group's Shortfin Barracuda, a conventionally powered variant of the nuclear-powered Barracuda Class submarines, the joint media statement said:
"Defence has continued to ensure that design of the Attack Class has progressed to the required high levels of design maturity, providing greater certainty that our capability requirements will be met, and avoiding costly and lengthy delays that would otherwise eventuate during the construction phase of the program.
"While the first scheduled major milestone under the Submarine Design Contract was reached five weeks later than planned, Defence and Naval Group are working towards the recovery of this delay by the next contracted major milestone in January 2021. Importantly, the delivery of the Attack Class submarine has not been delayed."
Remaining upbeat about the circumstances, the joint media release added, "Acknowledging the scale of this program, we remain confident that our work on the Attack Class Submarine Program with Naval Group and Lockheed Martin Australia is progressing thoroughly and will result in the delivery of a regionally superior submarine capability for Australia from the early 2030s, establishing a truly sovereign capability as we maximise the involvement of Australian industry."
The joint media release also stressed the importance of maintaining a transparent relationship regarding the SEA 1000 program and emphasised that this will remain throughout the program, stating:
"Defence has remained open in reporting the high risks that accompany the Attack Class Submarine Program, and has been diligent in working with its industry partner to manage pressures. As many lessons from major projects clearly indicate, taking the time required to establish strong foundations at the earliest stages of the Attack Class Program will underpin our longer-term ability to deliver the Attack Class fleet to schedule."
The Attack Class submarines will be delivered as part of the $50 billion SEA 1000 Future Submarine program.
Naval Group will deliver 12 regionally-superior submarines to the Royal Australian Navy. Naval Group's successful Shortfin Barracuda design, which serves as the basis for the new Attack Class, is a conventionally-powered variant of the nuclear-powered Barracuda fast attack submarine currently under construction for the French Navy.
Lockheed Martin will provide the AN/BYG-1 combat control system, which provides an open-architecture submarine combat control system for analysing and tracking submarine and surface-ship contacts, providing situational awareness as well as the capability to target and employ torpedoes and missiles.
The 12 vessels will be built by Naval Group at a specialist submarine shipyard at Osborne, South Australia.
The Commonwealth government’s Australian Naval Infrastructure (ANI) program will support the development of the future submarine shipyards.
The Commonwealth government formally signed the strategic partnering agreement (SPA) with Naval Group in February 2019 ahead of confirming the final design specifications and requirements for the Attack Class submarines.
The Attack Class will enter service with the Royal Australian Navy at a time when 50 per cent of the world’s submarines will be operating in the Indo-Pacific region.
https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/marit ... sub-report
Defence leadership responds to troubling ANAO sub report
By: Stephen Kuper MARITIME AND UNDERSEA WARFARE|17 JANUARY 2020
Naval-Group-Attack-Class-Submarine
Greg Moriarty, Secretary of the Department of Defence; Chief of Defence, General Angus Campbell, AO, DSC; Chief of Navy, Vice Admiral Mike Noonan, AO; and Tony Dalton, Deputy Secretary National Naval Shipbuilding have responded to the latest ANAO report into the SEA 1000 program.
It is the largest defence acquisition project in the history of the nation, but the apparently $50 billion project to replace the ageing Collins Class submarines with 12 regionally-superior submarines is in deep water.
Concerns about cost, capability and delivery time frame are again making headlines following the release of a troubling report from the Australian National Audit Office (ANAO) titled Future Submarine – Transition to design, building on the fallout from a fiery exchange at Senate estimates in late-2019.
To this end, Greg Moriarty, Secretary of the Department of Defence; Chief of Defence, General Angus Campbell, AO, DSC; Chief of Navy, Vice Admiral Mike Noonan, AO; and Tony Dalton, Deputy Secretary National Naval Shipbuilding have issued a rebuke to statements made in the media.
"Australia is fully committed to working with France and Naval Group to deliver the Attack Class Submarine fleet, which remains a strategically vital capability for our Defence Force into the future," the joint media statement articulates.
"The ANAO has previously reported that Defence effectively designed and implemented the process to select an international partner for the Attack Class Submarine Program (ANAO Report No.48 2016-17).
"Through a robust and comprehensive selection process, Defence determined that Naval Group was the most suitable partner to design and deliver a regionally superior submarine that will best meet our demanding capability requirements. Nothing has altered this assessment. Defence stands by this judgement."
Addressing concerns about Defence's requirements of "high levels of design maturity" for the successful design, Naval Group's Shortfin Barracuda, a conventionally powered variant of the nuclear-powered Barracuda Class submarines, the joint media statement said:
"Defence has continued to ensure that design of the Attack Class has progressed to the required high levels of design maturity, providing greater certainty that our capability requirements will be met, and avoiding costly and lengthy delays that would otherwise eventuate during the construction phase of the program.
"While the first scheduled major milestone under the Submarine Design Contract was reached five weeks later than planned, Defence and Naval Group are working towards the recovery of this delay by the next contracted major milestone in January 2021. Importantly, the delivery of the Attack Class submarine has not been delayed."
Remaining upbeat about the circumstances, the joint media release added, "Acknowledging the scale of this program, we remain confident that our work on the Attack Class Submarine Program with Naval Group and Lockheed Martin Australia is progressing thoroughly and will result in the delivery of a regionally superior submarine capability for Australia from the early 2030s, establishing a truly sovereign capability as we maximise the involvement of Australian industry."
The joint media release also stressed the importance of maintaining a transparent relationship regarding the SEA 1000 program and emphasised that this will remain throughout the program, stating:
"Defence has remained open in reporting the high risks that accompany the Attack Class Submarine Program, and has been diligent in working with its industry partner to manage pressures. As many lessons from major projects clearly indicate, taking the time required to establish strong foundations at the earliest stages of the Attack Class Program will underpin our longer-term ability to deliver the Attack Class fleet to schedule."
The Attack Class submarines will be delivered as part of the $50 billion SEA 1000 Future Submarine program.
Naval Group will deliver 12 regionally-superior submarines to the Royal Australian Navy. Naval Group's successful Shortfin Barracuda design, which serves as the basis for the new Attack Class, is a conventionally-powered variant of the nuclear-powered Barracuda fast attack submarine currently under construction for the French Navy.
Lockheed Martin will provide the AN/BYG-1 combat control system, which provides an open-architecture submarine combat control system for analysing and tracking submarine and surface-ship contacts, providing situational awareness as well as the capability to target and employ torpedoes and missiles.
The 12 vessels will be built by Naval Group at a specialist submarine shipyard at Osborne, South Australia.
The Commonwealth government’s Australian Naval Infrastructure (ANI) program will support the development of the future submarine shipyards.
The Commonwealth government formally signed the strategic partnering agreement (SPA) with Naval Group in February 2019 ahead of confirming the final design specifications and requirements for the Attack Class submarines.
The Attack Class will enter service with the Royal Australian Navy at a time when 50 per cent of the world’s submarines will be operating in the Indo-Pacific region.
https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/marit ... sub-report
-
- Posts: 1355
- Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:56 am
Re: Defence advised to walk away from french Subs
15 COMMENTS
Blue Leader
Four of our senior Defence leaders have signed off on this project DESPITE the comments from the ANAO, by issuing the above disappointing and surely unacceptable statement.
Suggest the PM needs to do more of what the US would do in such circumstances - that is: remove all 4 from their current roles and appoint another 4 with specific directions to ensure the project is ALL delivered by 2013 - NOT just boat #1 - but all 12 of them.
The PM needs to demonstrate to Defence what is meant by PAY FOR PERFORMANCE!
And ensure we have a sub that outperforms ALL boats in our Region.
That will mean half the boats need to be nuclear!
Anything less is a cop out!
0 · 22 hours ago.
Lee McCurtayne
Lots of fluff, no mention of AIP, no mention of Lithium Ion or any relevant future batteries. Nothing that adds weight to “Regionally Superior” submarine, this is nothing short of an insult to the taxpayer, what else is new.
It’s certainly true that we are going down that “Collins 1” road again, determined to make the same mistakes all over again. Great more “ Groundhog Day”.
0 · 2 days ago.
Anonymous
the last submarine should be built by 2030 not the 1st.... best bit of tech we have for them is the Quantum Sonar and other countries have that Technology atm too... so we sit on it like always... biggest market our gov has missed is platforms we can sell to our Indo Pacific allies.. why is Philippines building new french Submarines and not new Australian submarines, why is vietnam building new russian frigates and not Australian frigates.... because our gov did not consider the market they were looking at high end overpriced market... just like they got sucked into overspending for french subs our gov thought they could do the same to other countries instead of building for export that these countries could afford... we could of had baseline Anzac frigate for export a baseline Hobart AWD for export and a Baseline Collins class... make them cheap then let the countries chose what they want to add to them or use technology of their choice on them... we sell them shells they can custom fit cheap for their own countries needs..
0 · 2 days ago.
Anonymous
New Rule... from now on any projects our feels the urge to reinvent the wheel on platforms so they can talk crap as a ego boost we limit the numbers...... a smart person would of said lets build 2 or 4 Submarines at most, then after that once we iron out the bugs build more, not say 12 up front hold on to jocks we'll be winging this 1.... we could of built the 2nd generation Collins which we know works (say 6 A26 Oceanic ER) which we could have built and in service long before the 1st Attack class barracuda was built... we could keep our Collins in service with additional 6 A26 Oceanic ER (28 crew) subs, then we transfer Collins crews into the new Submarines... this would let us have atleast 6 to 10 submarines operational for our defence and not affected by training new crews, transferring to new boats etc... we could of ran 6 (28 crew) A26 Oceanic ER boats then we could run 8 100m (60 crew) nuclear propulsion missile boats with hypersonic missiles, UUV sub hunting drone swarms, EW drones an all that other fancy crap... i'm still laughing at regionally superior submarines using lead acid batteries, who the hell does our gov think they are bullshitting lmao.. they may aswell call them "Smart Submarines" lol
0 · 2 days ago.
Johnno
Usual Defence smokescreen.
If things are tracking well publish the schedule and allow performance to be monitored.
The basics are already know:
Cut Steel 2023.
Handover boat 1 around 2030
in service 2033.
This project is too big to apply the usual rules - 'Hide everything until you are forced to come clean at taxpayers expense'.
0 · 2 days ago.
Anonymous
We would have been better off buying the drone submarines from China. What a mess from those whose hands are closest to the till.
0 · 2 days ago.
GB
Please cut through the ideology and go straight to a nuclear powered sub, I cant understand why Australia undervalues itself in the world, don't you think we are good enough? I don't want to become a Chinese annexed nation or any other for that matter!
0 · 2 days ago.
MJohn
Garbage article
0 · 2 days ago.
Anonymous
Well there you go, we are locked in to the SEA 1000 program. Time to build the best submarine that the world has ever seen then.
0 · 2 days ago.
Anonymous
Keep calling them "regionally" superior, and maybe it will come true. I told Santa I was a good boy too. As my old judge mate said: "Just remember their names, because the Australian public, and the legal system will."
Blue Leader
Four of our senior Defence leaders have signed off on this project DESPITE the comments from the ANAO, by issuing the above disappointing and surely unacceptable statement.
Suggest the PM needs to do more of what the US would do in such circumstances - that is: remove all 4 from their current roles and appoint another 4 with specific directions to ensure the project is ALL delivered by 2013 - NOT just boat #1 - but all 12 of them.
The PM needs to demonstrate to Defence what is meant by PAY FOR PERFORMANCE!
And ensure we have a sub that outperforms ALL boats in our Region.
That will mean half the boats need to be nuclear!
Anything less is a cop out!
0 · 22 hours ago.
Lee McCurtayne
Lots of fluff, no mention of AIP, no mention of Lithium Ion or any relevant future batteries. Nothing that adds weight to “Regionally Superior” submarine, this is nothing short of an insult to the taxpayer, what else is new.
It’s certainly true that we are going down that “Collins 1” road again, determined to make the same mistakes all over again. Great more “ Groundhog Day”.
0 · 2 days ago.
Anonymous
the last submarine should be built by 2030 not the 1st.... best bit of tech we have for them is the Quantum Sonar and other countries have that Technology atm too... so we sit on it like always... biggest market our gov has missed is platforms we can sell to our Indo Pacific allies.. why is Philippines building new french Submarines and not new Australian submarines, why is vietnam building new russian frigates and not Australian frigates.... because our gov did not consider the market they were looking at high end overpriced market... just like they got sucked into overspending for french subs our gov thought they could do the same to other countries instead of building for export that these countries could afford... we could of had baseline Anzac frigate for export a baseline Hobart AWD for export and a Baseline Collins class... make them cheap then let the countries chose what they want to add to them or use technology of their choice on them... we sell them shells they can custom fit cheap for their own countries needs..
0 · 2 days ago.
Anonymous
New Rule... from now on any projects our feels the urge to reinvent the wheel on platforms so they can talk crap as a ego boost we limit the numbers...... a smart person would of said lets build 2 or 4 Submarines at most, then after that once we iron out the bugs build more, not say 12 up front hold on to jocks we'll be winging this 1.... we could of built the 2nd generation Collins which we know works (say 6 A26 Oceanic ER) which we could have built and in service long before the 1st Attack class barracuda was built... we could keep our Collins in service with additional 6 A26 Oceanic ER (28 crew) subs, then we transfer Collins crews into the new Submarines... this would let us have atleast 6 to 10 submarines operational for our defence and not affected by training new crews, transferring to new boats etc... we could of ran 6 (28 crew) A26 Oceanic ER boats then we could run 8 100m (60 crew) nuclear propulsion missile boats with hypersonic missiles, UUV sub hunting drone swarms, EW drones an all that other fancy crap... i'm still laughing at regionally superior submarines using lead acid batteries, who the hell does our gov think they are bullshitting lmao.. they may aswell call them "Smart Submarines" lol
0 · 2 days ago.
Johnno
Usual Defence smokescreen.
If things are tracking well publish the schedule and allow performance to be monitored.
The basics are already know:
Cut Steel 2023.
Handover boat 1 around 2030
in service 2033.
This project is too big to apply the usual rules - 'Hide everything until you are forced to come clean at taxpayers expense'.
0 · 2 days ago.
Anonymous
We would have been better off buying the drone submarines from China. What a mess from those whose hands are closest to the till.
0 · 2 days ago.
GB
Please cut through the ideology and go straight to a nuclear powered sub, I cant understand why Australia undervalues itself in the world, don't you think we are good enough? I don't want to become a Chinese annexed nation or any other for that matter!
0 · 2 days ago.
MJohn
Garbage article
0 · 2 days ago.
Anonymous
Well there you go, we are locked in to the SEA 1000 program. Time to build the best submarine that the world has ever seen then.
0 · 2 days ago.
Anonymous
Keep calling them "regionally" superior, and maybe it will come true. I told Santa I was a good boy too. As my old judge mate said: "Just remember their names, because the Australian public, and the legal system will."
-
- Posts: 1355
- Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:56 am
Re: Defence advised to walk away from french Subs
Way back then it was all so simple and straight forward!!
Australia, France Sign $50 Billion Attack-Class Submarines Agreement
Our Bureau 02:13 PM, February 11, 2019 3175
Australia, France Sign $50 Billion Attack-class Submarines Agreement
Australia today signed a ‘Strategic Partnering Agreement’ with the French contractor Naval Group for Attack-class submarines, the Australian defense ministry announced Monday.
The $50 billion Attack class program will see 12 regionally superior submarines designed and built in Australia for the Navy.
“The submarines will help protect Australia’s security and prosperity for decades to come and also deepen the defence relationship between Australia and France. Work on the submarines has taken place under the Design and Mobilisation Contract and this will continue uninterrupted under this Agreement,” the release said.
The agreement between the two partners for the Attack class Submarine Program will also see the delivery of new technologies and advanced manufacturing capabilities to Australia, introducing the next phase of Australian sovereignty as a submarine nation; the creation of thousands of direct and indirect Australian jobs which will positively impact many generations of Australians; and opportunities and long-term planning certainty for industry, allowing Australian companies involved in the submarine program to invest in the capabilities needed to support their involvement in construction and sustainment activities.
The first Attack class submarine, to be named HMAS Attack, will be delivered to the Navy in the early 2030s.
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/24243 ... iPin8gzZhE
Australia, France Sign $50 Billion Attack-Class Submarines Agreement
Our Bureau 02:13 PM, February 11, 2019 3175
Australia, France Sign $50 Billion Attack-class Submarines Agreement
Australia today signed a ‘Strategic Partnering Agreement’ with the French contractor Naval Group for Attack-class submarines, the Australian defense ministry announced Monday.
The $50 billion Attack class program will see 12 regionally superior submarines designed and built in Australia for the Navy.
“The submarines will help protect Australia’s security and prosperity for decades to come and also deepen the defence relationship between Australia and France. Work on the submarines has taken place under the Design and Mobilisation Contract and this will continue uninterrupted under this Agreement,” the release said.
The agreement between the two partners for the Attack class Submarine Program will also see the delivery of new technologies and advanced manufacturing capabilities to Australia, introducing the next phase of Australian sovereignty as a submarine nation; the creation of thousands of direct and indirect Australian jobs which will positively impact many generations of Australians; and opportunities and long-term planning certainty for industry, allowing Australian companies involved in the submarine program to invest in the capabilities needed to support their involvement in construction and sustainment activities.
The first Attack class submarine, to be named HMAS Attack, will be delivered to the Navy in the early 2030s.
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/24243 ... iPin8gzZhE
-
- Posts: 1355
- Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:56 am
Re: Defence advised to walk away from french Subs
Well it all sounded good on paper!!!
Designing the Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A
8 Apr 2016|Gerard Autret and Sean Costello
A common misunderstanding about the conventionally powered Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A is that is somehow “converted” from the nuclear powered French Barracuda. This characterisation is inaccurate. In fact the conventional ship uses the nuclear ship as its design reference.
As a new design for Australia’s specific requirement, the first design activity DCNS conducted was to size the ship. Based on what Australia needs the submarine to do, a calculation is performed to determine the necessary volume and weight required – how much submarine do we need? The answer to this question is found using specific programs within DCNS, and displacement is determined.
From this volume the naval architect then asks the next question – does an existing design approach the estimated displacement? If the answer is ‘yes’, this existing design becomes the reference for the new ship. If the answer is ‘no’, then a completely new design is required. In this situation one design loop will be insufficient and the design agency faces many years of risk reduction activity.
This threshold question is very important to understand and it is possible for different design agencies to answer this question differently, depending on the magnitude of the design loop in question. Design agencies will call on all their background tools, technologies, experience and know-how before answering one way or another. However, in the case of DCNS a clear and positive decision was made that the French Navy’s Barracuda would provide a very suitable design reference for the Shortfin Barracuda.
The data that enabled the selection of the Barracuda as the Australian design reference included such things hull diameter, length and steel, existing hydrodynamic studies of manoeuvrability, drag and acoustic performances and the suitability of main systems including, ship control, electrical, hydraulic, sonar, sensors, habitability, weapons storage, cooling, and ancillary platform systems. In each of these major systems the existing system design of the French Barracuda is used for the Shortfin Barracuda and from these known references an interpolation is performed for the new system design.
DCNS has high confidence in the performance of the design as the Shortfin Barracuda is within the envelope of the nuclear design. Where the nuclear design’s systems are not transferable the next most applicable systems are chosen. The main area where Barracuda design references were not used was in the area of the electrical system (batteries and voltage), power generation (induction and diesel generators) and propulsion (main electric motor). In these systems the design reference comes from the Scorpene class of diesel electric submarines, or from an existing submarine technology within DCNS. Existing technologies are re-used in all systems in the Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A. System by system, the whole ship performance is validated and the design loop closed.
The selection of the nuclear Barracuda as the design reference for the Shortfin also enabled DCNS to meet requirements in addition to range and endurance. The Australian requirements for warm water operations and very low acoustic signatures are good examples. As the nuclear Barracuda is designed to operate globally, shares the same hull form as the Shortfin Barracuda and is also compliant with nuclear safety standards, it is very suitable for the Australian requirement. This avoids many years of design studies for validation of equipment such as pumps and hoses, and allows the designer to take margins for higher performances elsewhere in the ship.
Acoustic performance is driven by three related factors of onboard equipment: silencing, reduction in the noise of the propeller and the overall hydrodynamic performance of the hull while manoeuvring. For the Australian requirement the nuclear Barracuda is again the closest design reference and all the relevant ship systems are reused. The challenge for any attack submarine is to maintain a nearly silent acoustic signature at a speed necessary to manoeuvre within weapons range of the target. The nuclear Barracuda is designed to reduce radiated noise when operating at a speed sufficient in order to close a threat submarine undetected. Of particular importance is the pump-jet propulsor, which combines a rotor and stator within a duct to significantly reduce the level of radiated noise through the effects of wake harmonisation and avoidance of cavitation.
One other myth worth debunking is that designers of nuclear submarines do not have to manage the power consumption of on board equipment as electricity from the reactor is “unlimited”. In large attack submarines, such as the French and proposed Australian Barracuda, the power consumption of the hotel load (the electricity needed to power the combat system and maintain the life support of the crew) is more than that of the propulsion system at the most frequently used speeds. In the case of nuclear submarines, the very high cost and significant weight of the reactor, as well as the safety requirement to operate on batteries without the reactor online, drives the architect to minimise the consumption of the hotel load to the lowest realisable level. In the case of a conventional submarine the preservation of energy in the main storage battery drives the same system design.
In summary, the description of the design process and choices made in the development of the Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A show that one submarine is not converted to another. Rather, a design reference is selected and an iteration of a new design is developed to meet the requirement with interpolation of known data and the re-use of proven technologies.
AUTHOR
Gerard Autret is the Chief Naval Architect of the Shortfin Barracuda and a DCNS expert in submarine naval architecture. Sean Costello is the CEO of DCNS Australia.
https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/desig ... -block-1a/
Designing the Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A
8 Apr 2016|Gerard Autret and Sean Costello
A common misunderstanding about the conventionally powered Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A is that is somehow “converted” from the nuclear powered French Barracuda. This characterisation is inaccurate. In fact the conventional ship uses the nuclear ship as its design reference.
As a new design for Australia’s specific requirement, the first design activity DCNS conducted was to size the ship. Based on what Australia needs the submarine to do, a calculation is performed to determine the necessary volume and weight required – how much submarine do we need? The answer to this question is found using specific programs within DCNS, and displacement is determined.
From this volume the naval architect then asks the next question – does an existing design approach the estimated displacement? If the answer is ‘yes’, this existing design becomes the reference for the new ship. If the answer is ‘no’, then a completely new design is required. In this situation one design loop will be insufficient and the design agency faces many years of risk reduction activity.
This threshold question is very important to understand and it is possible for different design agencies to answer this question differently, depending on the magnitude of the design loop in question. Design agencies will call on all their background tools, technologies, experience and know-how before answering one way or another. However, in the case of DCNS a clear and positive decision was made that the French Navy’s Barracuda would provide a very suitable design reference for the Shortfin Barracuda.
The data that enabled the selection of the Barracuda as the Australian design reference included such things hull diameter, length and steel, existing hydrodynamic studies of manoeuvrability, drag and acoustic performances and the suitability of main systems including, ship control, electrical, hydraulic, sonar, sensors, habitability, weapons storage, cooling, and ancillary platform systems. In each of these major systems the existing system design of the French Barracuda is used for the Shortfin Barracuda and from these known references an interpolation is performed for the new system design.
DCNS has high confidence in the performance of the design as the Shortfin Barracuda is within the envelope of the nuclear design. Where the nuclear design’s systems are not transferable the next most applicable systems are chosen. The main area where Barracuda design references were not used was in the area of the electrical system (batteries and voltage), power generation (induction and diesel generators) and propulsion (main electric motor). In these systems the design reference comes from the Scorpene class of diesel electric submarines, or from an existing submarine technology within DCNS. Existing technologies are re-used in all systems in the Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A. System by system, the whole ship performance is validated and the design loop closed.
The selection of the nuclear Barracuda as the design reference for the Shortfin also enabled DCNS to meet requirements in addition to range and endurance. The Australian requirements for warm water operations and very low acoustic signatures are good examples. As the nuclear Barracuda is designed to operate globally, shares the same hull form as the Shortfin Barracuda and is also compliant with nuclear safety standards, it is very suitable for the Australian requirement. This avoids many years of design studies for validation of equipment such as pumps and hoses, and allows the designer to take margins for higher performances elsewhere in the ship.
Acoustic performance is driven by three related factors of onboard equipment: silencing, reduction in the noise of the propeller and the overall hydrodynamic performance of the hull while manoeuvring. For the Australian requirement the nuclear Barracuda is again the closest design reference and all the relevant ship systems are reused. The challenge for any attack submarine is to maintain a nearly silent acoustic signature at a speed necessary to manoeuvre within weapons range of the target. The nuclear Barracuda is designed to reduce radiated noise when operating at a speed sufficient in order to close a threat submarine undetected. Of particular importance is the pump-jet propulsor, which combines a rotor and stator within a duct to significantly reduce the level of radiated noise through the effects of wake harmonisation and avoidance of cavitation.
One other myth worth debunking is that designers of nuclear submarines do not have to manage the power consumption of on board equipment as electricity from the reactor is “unlimited”. In large attack submarines, such as the French and proposed Australian Barracuda, the power consumption of the hotel load (the electricity needed to power the combat system and maintain the life support of the crew) is more than that of the propulsion system at the most frequently used speeds. In the case of nuclear submarines, the very high cost and significant weight of the reactor, as well as the safety requirement to operate on batteries without the reactor online, drives the architect to minimise the consumption of the hotel load to the lowest realisable level. In the case of a conventional submarine the preservation of energy in the main storage battery drives the same system design.
In summary, the description of the design process and choices made in the development of the Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A show that one submarine is not converted to another. Rather, a design reference is selected and an iteration of a new design is developed to meet the requirement with interpolation of known data and the re-use of proven technologies.
AUTHOR
Gerard Autret is the Chief Naval Architect of the Shortfin Barracuda and a DCNS expert in submarine naval architecture. Sean Costello is the CEO of DCNS Australia.
https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/desig ... -block-1a/
- billy the kid
- Posts: 5814
- Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:54 pm
Re: Defence advised to walk away from french Subs
What a load of dogshit....we don't need them...we don't want them...we cant afford them...
I know...how bout we scuttle the whole idea and maybe built a few aircraft carriers....
Don't laugh...our incompetent grubberment probably has the plans drawn up already....
In any case...no-one is going to attack Australia...no-one is going to invade Australia....
All they have to do is buy up whatever parts they want....
Wait a minit….aren't they doing that already.....
Watch out for those paratroopers landing in Kyogle folks....hang on theres a few
landing in Mildura too...….ffs...….
I know...how bout we scuttle the whole idea and maybe built a few aircraft carriers....
Don't laugh...our incompetent grubberment probably has the plans drawn up already....
In any case...no-one is going to attack Australia...no-one is going to invade Australia....
All they have to do is buy up whatever parts they want....
Wait a minit….aren't they doing that already.....
Watch out for those paratroopers landing in Kyogle folks....hang on theres a few
landing in Mildura too...….ffs...….
To discover those who rule over you, first discover those who you cannot criticize...Voltaire
Its coming...the rest of the world versus islam....or is it here already...
Its coming...the rest of the world versus islam....or is it here already...
- Bogan
- Posts: 948
- Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2019 5:27 pm
Re: Defence advised to walk away from french Subs
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- Bogan
- Posts: 948
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Re: Defence advised to walk away from french Subs
Whoops. Sorry, wrong picture.
-
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Re: Defence advised to walk away from french Subs
to err is human.
I forgive you.
Right Wing is the Natural Progression.
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Re: Defence advised to walk away from french Subs
yesbilly the kid wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:59 pmPork barrelling is one thing...but this entire fiasco reeks of sheer bloody incompetence...
Right Wing is the Natural Progression.
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