Global Warming

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Rorschach
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Re: Global Warming

Post by Rorschach » Fri Oct 17, 2014 9:10 pm

GeorgeH wrote:If the tectonic activity was new it might help explain the melting. It isn’t new and nobody has stated that activity has increased recently. They don’t know—read the two abstracts JoNova linked, you know, the actual science.

And East Antarctica is also losing ice. Volcanoes again, I suppose?
Image
I didn't get it from JoNova you idiot.
Maybe a larger font will help.
It's written in easy to understand English, so what is your problem?
As for Jo Nova your irrational and incorrect assumptions are tiresome.
I'm sure that the GEOPHYSICIST who did the actual study is a more reliable source than someone blogging as "thingadonta"... YOU have no credibility Monk.

As for the EAST... if you actually read stuff people posted you wouldn't ask such stupid questions.
:roll: :roll: :roll:
FFS man can't you even understand diagrams? :du
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boxy
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Re: Global Warming

Post by boxy » Fri Oct 17, 2014 9:34 pm

Super Nova wrote:
Neferti~ wrote: Exactly!
Exactly, Global Warming will increase extremes
Careful of that elephant in the room, it may tread on toes :lol:
"But you will run your fluffy bunny mouth at me. And I will take it, to play poker."

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IQS.RLOW
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Re: Global Warming

Post by IQS.RLOW » Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:19 pm

:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Super Nova
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Re: Global Warming

Post by Super Nova » Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:19 am

IQ and Roach, I have argued for action on climate change to mitigate the risk.

Please read this article. Time for action not misunderstanding what the science says.

Climate Uncertainty No Excuse for Inaction

Uncertain risk should be an impetus to take action rather than a reason for complacency
October 17, 2014 |By Richard Pancost and Stephan Lewandowsky

Just because some aspects of climate change are difficult to predict (will your county experience more intense floods in a warmer world, or will the floods occur down the road?) does not negate our wider understanding of the climate.

The following essay is reprinted with permission from The Conversation, an online publication covering the latest research.

Former environment minister Owen Paterson has called for the UK to scrap its climate change targets. In a speech to the Global Warming Policy Foundation, he cited “considerable uncertainty” over the impact of carbon emissions on global warming, a line that was displayed prominently in coverage by the Telegraph and the Daily Mail.

Paterson is far from alone: climate change debate has been suffused with appeals to “uncertainty” to delay policy action. Who hasn’t heard politicians or media personalities use uncertainty associated with some aspects of climate change to claim that the science is “not settled”?

Over in the US, this sort of thinking pops up quite often in the opinion pages of The Wall Street Journal. Its most recent article, by Professor Judith Curry, concludes that the ostensibly slowed rate of recent warming gives us “more time to find ways to decarbonise the economy affordably.”

At first glance, avoiding interference with the global economy may seem advisable when there is uncertainty about the future rate of warming or the severity of its consequences.

But delaying action because the facts are presumed to be unreliable reflects a misunderstanding of the science of uncertainty. Simply because a crucial parameter such as the climate system’s sensitivity to greenhouse gas emissions is expressed as a range – for example, that under some emissions scenarios we will experience 2.6°C to 4.8ºC of global warming or 0.3 to 1.7 m of sea level rise by 2100 – does not mean that the underlying science is poorly understood. We are very confident that temperatures and sea levels will rise by a considerable amount.

Perhaps more importantly, just because some aspects of climate change are difficult to predict (will your county experience more intense floods in a warmer world, or will the floods occur down the road?) does not negate our wider understanding of the climate. We can’t yet predict the floods of the future but we do know that precipitation will be more intense because more water will be stored in the atmosphere on a warmer planet.

This idea of uncertainty might be embedded deeply within science but is no one’s friend and it should be minimised to the greatest extent possible. It is an impetus to mitigative action rather than a reason for complacency.

Uncertainty means greater risk

There are three key aspects of scientific uncertainty surrounding climate change projections that exacerbate rather than ameliorate the risks to our future.

First, uncertainty has an asymmetrical effect on many climatic quantities. For example, a quantity known as Earth system sensitivity, which tells us how much the planet warms for each doubling of atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration, has been estimated to be between 1.5°C to 4.5ºC. However, it is highly unlikely, given the well-established understanding of how carbon dioxide absorbs long-wave radiation, that this value can be below 1ºC. There is a possibility, however, that sensitivity could be higher than 4.5ºC. For fundamental mathematical reasons, the uncertainty favours greater, rather than smaller, climate impacts than a simple range suggests.

Second, the uncertainty in our projections makes adaptation to climate change more expensive and challenging. Suppose we need to build flood defences for a coastal English town. If we could forecast a 1m sea level rise by 2100 without any uncertainty, the town could confidently build flood barriers 1m higher than they are today. However, although sea levels are most likely to rise by about 1m, we’re really looking at a range between 0.3m and 1.7m. Therefore, flood defences must be at least 1.7m higher than today – 70cm higher than they could be in the absence of uncertainty. And as uncertainty increases, so does the required height of flood defences for non-negotiable mathematical reasons.

And the problem doesn’t end there, as there is further uncertainty in forecasts of rainfall occurrence, intensity and storm surges. This could ultimately mandate a 2 to 3m-high flood defence to stay on the safe side, even if the most likely prediction is for only a 1m sea-level rise. Even then, as most uncertainty ranges are for 95% confidence, there is a 5% chance that those walls would still be too low. Maybe a town is willing to accept a 5% chance of a breach, but a nuclear power station cannot to take such risks.

Finally, some global warming consequences are associated with deep, so-called systemic uncertainty. For example, the combined impact on coral reefs of warmer oceans, more acidic waters and coastal run-off that becomes more silt-choked from more intense rainfalls is very difficult to predict. But we do know, from decades of study of complex systems, that those deep uncertainties may camouflage particularly grave risks. This is particularly concerning given that more than 2.6 billion people depend on the oceans as their primary source of protein.

Similarly, warming of Arctic permafrost could promote the growth of CO2-sequestering plants, the release of warming-accelerating methane, or both. Warm worlds with very high levels of carbon dioxide did exist in the very distant past and these earlier worlds provide some insight into the response of the Earth system; however, we are accelerating into this new world at a rate that is unprecedented in Earth history, creating additional layers of complexity and uncertainty.

Uncertainty does not imply ignorance
Increasingly, arguments against climate mitigation are phrased as “I accept that humans are increasing CO2 levels and that this will cause some warming but climate is so complicated we cannot understand what the impacts of that warming will be.”

This argument is incorrect – uncertainty does not imply ignorance. Indeed, whatever we don’t know mandates caution. No parent would argue “I accept that if my child kicks lions, this will irritate them, but a range of factors will dictate how the lions respond; therefore I will not stop my child from kicking lions.”

The deeper the uncertainty, the more greenhouse gas emissions should be perceived as a wild and poorly understood gamble. By extension, the only unequivocal tool for minimising climate change uncertainty is to decrease our greenhouse gas emissions.

This article was originally published at The Conversation.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... -inaction/
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Super Nova
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Re: Global Warming

Post by Super Nova » Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:43 am

I recall someone laughing at renewable energy recently... well check this out....... it's real and driving down energy costs would give them an economic advantage... ... it is to laugh.. ha ha

Wind Power Blows Away Coal and Gas in Nordic Countries

Wind power is blowing gas and coal-fired turbines out of business in the Nordic countries, and the effects will be felt across the Baltic region as the renewable glut erodes utility margins for thermal power stations.

October 17, 2014 By Nerijus Adomaitis

OSLO (Reuters) - Wind power is blowing gas and coal-fired turbines out of business in the Nordic countries, and the effects will be felt across the Baltic region as the renewable glut erodes utility margins for thermal power stations.

Fossil power plants in Finland and Denmark act as swing-producers, helping to meet demand when hydropower production in Norway and Sweden falls due to dry weather.

The arrival of wind power on a large scale has made this role less relevant and has pushed electricity prices down, eroding profitability of fossil power stations.

"Demand for coal condensing power in the Nordic power market has decreased as a result of the economic recession and the drop in the wholesale price for electricity," state-controlled Finnish utility Fortum said, booking an impairment loss of about 25 million euros($31.67 million).

Nordic wholesale forward power prices have almost halved since 2010 to little over 30 euros per megawatt-hour (MWh) as capacity increases while demand stalls on the back of stagnant populations, low economic growth and lower energy use due to improved efficiency.

Short-run marginal costs (SRMC) of coal generation were 28.70 euros per megawatt-hour (MWh), the Nordic power regulators said, while costs of gas-fired power generation were much higher, at 53 euros/MWh in 2013.

"The Nordic system price will likely more often clear well below the production cost for coal fired power production," said Marius Holm Rennesund Oslo-based consultancy THEMA.

"This will, in our view, result in mothballing of 2,000 MW of coal condensing capacity in Denmark and Finland towards 2030," he added.

Adding further wind power capacity at current market conditions could lead to power prices dropping towards as low as 20 euros per MWh, the marginal cost for nuclear reactors, Rennesund said.

PART OF A PLAN

Denmark and Finland have about 11,000 MW of coal, gas and oil-fired generating capacities, Reuters estimate shows.

Pushing fossil-fueled power stations out of the Nordic generation park is part of government plans across the region.

Denmark wants to phase all coal use in power generation by 2030 and to generate all power and heat from renewables by 2035.

Wind power is expected to meet half consumption in Denmark by 2020, up from 33.4 percent in 2013.

In neighboring Sweden, wind meets about 8 percent of total consumption, and installed capacity has more than doubled to about 5,000 MW in 2014 from 2010. Its wind power association predicts the capacity to rise to some 7,000 MW by 2017.

In Norway, the government has pledged to change tax rules to catch up with Sweden.

These plans are beginning to bear results.

Naturkraft, a joint venture between Norway's Statoil and Statkraft [STATKF.UL], said this month it would put its 420 megawatt (MW) Kaarstoe gas-fired power plant in "cold reserve" from January.

Mothballing the 2 billion crowns ($302 million) plant, which had operated for only a few days per year, would help to save 50-80 million crowns per year, Naturkraft's chief executive John Terje Staveland told Reuters.

Earlier this year, Finnish utility Fortum shut its 695 MW Inkoo coal-fire power plant.

Sweden's Vattenfall [VATN.UL] said in May it will shut down its 409 MW coal-fired Fyn power plant in Denmark from May 2016.

The state-run utility sold its 314 MW coal-fired Amager power plant in Copenhagen to a Danish utility HOFOR, which plans to replace coal with biomass.

The developments in the Nordic countries is also beginning to affect utilities in the Baltic states as their grids get more integrated.

Estonia's energy group Eesti Energia saw its power sales to drop by 30 percent during the first half of the year after a 650 MW link to Finland came online at end-2013.

Cheaper power imports from the Nordics have halved Eesti Energia's profit margin to 12 euros per MWh in the second quarter, the company said in its quarterly report.

Lithuania, which expects to have a 700 MW interconnection to Sweden by end-2015, has said it would shut 900 MW of gas-fired capacity by 2016 due to negative margins.(1 US dollar = 6.6199 Norwegian krone)

(1 US dollar = 0.7895 euro)
http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... countries/
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Re: Global Warming

Post by Rorschach » Mon Oct 20, 2014 8:40 am

SN
1/ IQS and I do not share the exact same opinion on Climate change.
2/ In Australia renewables have increased the cost of power, as have other measures taken.
3/ I have always stated that adaptation and technology, not taxation, will be the ultimate solution as it always has.
4/ The next ice age, a very natural and recurring event, will not be stopped by taxation or a change in energy source. In fact I'd go as far as to state it will not be stopped... period.
5/ Kicking lions and using electricity are not the same things. :roll:
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Re: Global Warming

Post by IQS.RLOW » Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:56 am

SN, you have quoted an article by the serial liar, Lewandowśky.

Please research your material better before reading drivel from known liars.
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Re: Global Warming

Post by IQS.RLOW » Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:00 am

Nordic wholesale forward power prices have almost halved since 2010 to little over 30 euros per megawatt-hour (MWh)
Now tell me why the retail price is and then tell me what the retail price is in Australia...

Seriously SN, do research your dribble better. Any one could have told you the Nordic wholesale cost is double what our retail costs are hence why wind and other false power supplies are viable. The reason it is double is so they can make uncompetitive power viable.

I'd prefer to just have the cheap power in the first place...
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Super Nova
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Re: Global Warming

Post by Super Nova » Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:33 pm

IQS.RLOW wrote:
Nordic wholesale forward power prices have almost halved since 2010 to little over 30 euros per megawatt-hour (MWh)
Now tell me why the retail price is and then tell me what the retail price is in Australia...

Seriously SN, do research your dribble better. Any one could have told you the Nordic wholesale cost is double what our retail costs are hence why wind and other false power supplies are viable. The reason it is double is so they can make uncompetitive power viable.

I'd prefer to just have the cheap power in the first place...
We have cheaper power because of the environmentally friendly snow mountain scheme. If we didn't have that it would be more expensive.

Also we have greater access to the raw material to fuel our generators that are not hydro. Yes it is cheaper and Australia is blessed with a whole continent to dig up. Still this article shows there are places making progress... it is progress not perfection. When they master new technology again Australia will be behind and import it rather than invent it when to real risk of global warming manifest themselves.

We are missing an innovation opportunity because we are too short sighted.
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Rorschach
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Re: Global Warming

Post by Rorschach » Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:03 pm

I doubt all of that very much SN...
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