The amorality of badness

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AiA in Atlanta
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Re: The amorality of badness

Post by AiA in Atlanta » Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:20 am

The Artist formerly known as Sappho wrote:
AiA in Atlanta wrote:Didn't most of the great philosophers have their own schools? The Stoics are misunderstood today - they believed that humans should enjoy the good things of life but just not cling to them. Something Buddhist in that, don't you think?
No Stoics did not believe that you should enjoy the good things in life... that was Hedonism... but even then it was a belief that encouraged moderation, because anything less or more than that had a negative effect on pleasure. Hedonism in those times however was more focused on fostering healthy, meaningful relationships/friendships as the ultimate in pleasure seeking behaviour. Epicurus was the father of Hedonism.

Stoics believe that we should be indifferent to pleasure and pain, which is quite Buddhist indeed. Where as Hedonism supports the idea of emotional intelligence, Stoics did not; preferring a kind of 'Vulcan' understanding of the world that is based in logic. Zeno was the father of Stoicism.

Not so sure. The one and only book I have read on the Stoics is: A Guide to the Good Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy. The author was clear (I felt) that it is quite right to enjoy the good things in life.

The Artist formerly known as Sappho

Re: The amorality of badness

Post by The Artist formerly known as Sappho » Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:25 am

AiA in Atlanta wrote:
The Artist formerly known as Sappho wrote:
AiA in Atlanta wrote:Didn't most of the great philosophers have their own schools? The Stoics are misunderstood today - they believed that humans should enjoy the good things of life but just not cling to them. Something Buddhist in that, don't you think?
No Stoics did not believe that you should enjoy the good things in life... that was Hedonism... but even then it was a belief that encouraged moderation, because anything less or more than that had a negative effect on pleasure. Hedonism in those times however was more focused on fostering healthy, meaningful relationships/friendships as the ultimate in pleasure seeking behaviour. Epicurus was the father of Hedonism.

Stoics believe that we should be indifferent to pleasure and pain, which is quite Buddhist indeed. Where as Hedonism supports the idea of emotional intelligence, Stoics did not; preferring a kind of 'Vulcan' understanding of the world that is based in logic. Zeno was the father of Stoicism.

Not so sure. The one and only book I have read on the Stoics is: A Guide to the Good Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy. The author was clear (I felt) that it is quite right to enjoy the good things in life.
Would you accept Stanford University's account of Stoicism then...
Stoicism was one of the new philosophical movements of the Hellenistic period. The name derives from the porch (stoa poikilê) in the Agora at Athens decorated with mural paintings, where the members of the school congregated, and their lectures were held. Unlike ‘epicurean,’ the sense of the English adjective ‘stoical’ is not utterly misleading with regard to its philosophical origins. The Stoics did, in fact, hold that emotions like fear or envy (or impassioned sexual attachments, or passionate love of anything whatsoever) either were, or arose from, false judgements and that the sage—a person who had attained moral and intellectual perfection—would not undergo them. The later Stoics of Roman Imperial times, Seneca and Epictetus, emphasise the doctrines (already central to the early Stoics' teachings) that the sage is utterly immune to misfortune and that virtue is sufficient for happiness. Our phrase ‘stoic calm’ perhaps encapsulates the general drift of these claims. It does not, however, hint at the even more radical ethical views which the Stoics defended, e.g. that only the sage is free while all others are slaves, or that all those who are morally vicious are equally so. Though it seems clear that some Stoics took a kind of perverse joy in advocating views which seem so at odds with common sense, they did not do so simply to shock. Stoic ethics achieves a certain plausibility within the context of their physical theory and psychology, and within the framework of Greek ethical theory as that was handed down to them from Plato and Aristotle. It seems that they were well aware of the mutually interdependent nature of their philosophical views, likening philosophy itself to a living animal in which logic is bones and sinews; ethics and physics, the flesh and the soul respectively (another version reverses this assignment, making ethics the soul). Their views in logic and physics are no less distinctive and interesting than those in ethics itself.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/stoicism/

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AiA in Atlanta
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Re: The amorality of badness

Post by AiA in Atlanta » Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:37 am

No, I don't doubt that account of Stoicism but the author the book I mentioned emphasized that one could enjoy anything in this world only as long as one was not attached to it.

The Artist formerly known as Sappho

Re: The amorality of badness

Post by The Artist formerly known as Sappho » Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:43 am

AiA in Atlanta wrote:No, I don't doubt that account of Stoicism but the author the book I mentioned emphasized that one could enjoy anything in this world only as long as one was not attached to it.
Who was this dude? Name the author AiA, because I swear... enjoyment is a form of attachment and therefore his whole argument is a fallacy.

Sounds to me as though the author was confusing Stoicism and Buddhism... the former discounts emotional content... the latter does not.

Then again... maybe it was just a bunch of mumbo jumbo of the kind found in 'self help' books which the author sort to give credence via inappropriate appeals to authority... after all, if you don't have a background in the material that you are reading... how on earth can you if what you are reading is correctly interpreted.

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AiA in Atlanta
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Re: The amorality of badness

Post by AiA in Atlanta » Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:04 am

Will go home and get out my copy and get back to you. The book is well-regarded which is why I bought it.

The Artist formerly known as Sappho

Re: The amorality of badness

Post by The Artist formerly known as Sappho » Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:07 am

AiA in Atlanta wrote:Will go home and get out my copy and get back to you. The book is well-regarded which is why I bought it.
No need. The guy you are speaking of is William Birvine... and the book in question is about how to live a virtuous life, which is the good life, which if lived well causes the human feelings of joy.

That's quite different to the account you have given of the book and its philosophy. You cannot for example live a virtuous life by "enjoy anything in this world only as long as one was not attached to it." (Nor does the book suggest that you can.)

Also, Birvine's interpretation of stoicism is from the Roman vain, rather than the original Greek, although he does give the Greeks a cursory mention. And even though the book has a Roman flavour, their values and our values are so vastly different that it is more sensible to say that his book is a modern application of stoicism with Roman sympathies. When men of ancient Rome would stoically seek Glory through battle (one of three main values), modern men seek..... ?

Perhaps you need to read it again AiA.

The Artist formerly known as Sappho

Re: The amorality of badness

Post by The Artist formerly known as Sappho » Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:10 am

The Artist formerly known as Sappho wrote:Then again... maybe it was just a bunch of mumbo jumbo of the kind found in 'self help' books which the author sort to give credence via inappropriate appeals to authority... after all, if you don't have a background in the material that you are reading... how on earth can you if what you are reading is correctly interpreted.
But what the hey... if it feels right to you, live it!

Although... what feels intellectually right may not be right at all... lest we forget Cato the Younger. A perfect example of stoic virtue and arguably the catalyst of the fall of Roman Republicanism.

I wonder... if good men can cause bad outcomes, were they really good men? What is the nature of badness again... did anyone say... because we can't answer that question without knowing the nature of badness.

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AiA in Atlanta
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Re: The amorality of badness

Post by AiA in Atlanta » Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:42 am

LOL You have a big swinging dick to tell someone to reread a book you haven't read yourself. :lol: This book is about practical Stoicism: if you don't put a philosophy into action, what good is it?

The Artist formerly known as Sappho

Re: The amorality of badness

Post by The Artist formerly known as Sappho » Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:47 pm

AiA in Atlanta wrote:LOL You have a big swinging dick to tell someone to reread a book you haven't read yourself. :lol:
LOL. It's massive... Iz tell ya... MASSIVE!

To justify my comments I did read some excepts... quite substantial excepts from the book. And what I read did not ring true with what you wrote.
This book is about practical Stoicism: if you don't put a philosophy into action, what good is it?
Yes, it's a 'self help' book which is why I re-quoted my comments on self help books. What's more... the author intended it as a self help book.

AiA... do you live the stoic life?

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Mattus
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Re: The amorality of badness

Post by Mattus » Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:41 pm

The Artist formerly known as Sappho wrote: In your case Mattus, that the collective suffers and that employment is placed at risk are factual statements that need factual reasons... aka evidence to back them up. Is there any evidence, aside from correlation studies? Can you show me a company that failed because the employees took their yearly allocated sickies? Can you show me a team that is suffering (remembering that to suffer is a physical and emotional condition of significance which doesn't include annoyance) as a result of a team member taking a sickie? If what you claim is true, then surely there would be more discussion of this concern by corporations... because I assure you, most people take their allocated yearly allowance of sickies whether they are sick or not so where is that on going discussion? And by on going discussion, I don't mean such a thing as happened before Australia Day where people take a sickie in order to enjoy a long weekend... I mean on going discussion such as happens now days with bullies, smoking, gambling etc.
It's an amusing rhetorical tool, to tell me what my argument should be and then send me off to look for evidence to support it. Nevertheless I shall play along. My belief is, of course, limited to my own experience, where some dickhead chucking a "sickie" and thus not showing up for an important client event contributed to our losing the client. However, a few minutes of google based research tells me that my belief is not alone. From a simple HR perspective, the cost of fabricated "sickies" is equivalent to the recent Tsunami in Japan, which devastated countless business and lives.

Now it's your turn. Given that it's against the terms of employment to fake a sickie, can you provide evidence that it is, in fact, harmless?
The second argument presented is that of like for like treatment. I'm not exactly sure of how this applies to a contractual obligation between the employee and the corporation except to say that those who take a sickie are rewarded with a wage for the day off, assuming they have sickies to take and those who don't take a sickie are not rewarded. This can be better understood in terms of redundancy where the person who has saved their sickies loose that entitlement because it is not paid out, as part of the redundancy. There is a sense of injustice in that, don't you think? A decent employee who never takes a sickie is neither punished or rewarded for it when faced with redundancy, but a person notorious for taking their sickies will receive the same redundancy conditions, but has the added benefit of having been paid during their employment for days not worked.
Sure, but if both of us take dodgy sickies, isn't the risk of termination settlements like this increased for everyone? Thus there remains an incentive for me to not take unnecessary leave, in order to better preserve my and everyone else's, employment. I'm also justified in resenting those that do, for abusing a necessary concession which risks my employment.
If this like for like treatment is between employees... then can I point out that colleagues have no authority on the matter of sick day allocation and usage and therefore cannot be seen to be offering or denying like for like behaviour. The suggestion, which is false, is that... if you don't take a sickie, then I won't take a sickie... but how do you know if they are honouring their end of the informal social contract there? You can't... you don't know if the day they had off was a legitimate day or not... you don't know if the medical certificate is valid or not... you don't know even if a medical certificate was lodged or not. And since there is no way of knowing if a breach of that social contract has occurred, then there is a question over the validity of that social contract in the first place.
In this case, opinion of colleagues is formed based on suspicion and a familiarity with other related work ethic characteristics, rather than firm evidence. Social contracts are very frequently based on this level of understanding, rather than certainty.
"I may be the first man to put a testicle in Germaine Greer's mouth"

-Heston Blumenthal

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