Science a positive influence on society and politics should

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HIGHERBEAM
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Science a positive influence on society and politics should

Post by HIGHERBEAM » Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:19 am

A variety of historical, philosophical, and scientific arguments have been put forth in favor of the idea that science and religion are in conflict. Historical examples of religious individuals or institutions promoting claims that contradict both contemporary and modern scientific consensus include creationism (see level of support for evolution), and more recently, Pope Benedict XVI's 2009 statements claiming that the use of condoms to combat the AIDS epidemic in Africa was ineffective and counterproductive.In the Galileo affair, the acceptance, from 1616 to 1757, of the Greek geocentric model (Ptolemaic system) by the Roman Catholic Church, and its consequent opposition to heliocentrism, was first called into question by the Catholic cleric Copernicus, and subsequently disproved conclusively by Galileo, who was persecuted for his minority view.Additionally, long held religious claims have been challenged by scientific studies such as STEP, which examined the efficacy of prayer. A number of scientists including Jerry Coyne have made an argument for a philosophical incompatibility between religion and science. An argument for the conflict between religion and science that combines the historical and philosophical approaches has been presented by Neil Degrasse Tyson.Tyson argues that religious scientists, such as Isaac Newton, could have achieved more had they not accepted religious answers to unresolved scientific issues.
This is a quote from wikpedia which is a good starting point.Should science play any role in political thinking and society.

Yes if science was not around we would still have a flat earth,all the stars would revolve around us. In modern society I tend to think science is playing a more prominant role than ever eg Global warming,Whale killing.Human nature shows we follow whoever has the loudest voice eg communism.But eventually truth thru science will prevail.
Last edited by HIGHERBEAM on Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Super Nova
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Re: s

Post by Super Nova » Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:34 am

Newton's laws (as well as Maxwell's later physics of electricity and magnetism) apply to isolated or closed systems; they describe how the world works provided that the world is a closed (isolated) system, subject to no outside causal influence. But it is no part of Newtonian mechanics or classical science generally to declare that the material universe is indeed a closed system. (How could a thing like that be experimentally verified?) Hence there is nothing in classical science (at least in this area) incompatible with God's changing the velocity or direction of a particle, or a whole system of particles (or, for that matter, creating ex nihilo a full-grown horse). Energy, momentum and the like are conserved in a closed system; but the claim that the material universe is in fact a closed system is not part of classical physics; it is another metaphysical or theological add-on. So here there is no conflict between classical physics and special divine action in the world.

This classical, Laplacian picture has of course been superseded by the development of quantum mechanics, beginning in the first couple of decades of the 20th century. According to quantum mechanics, associated with any physical system, a system of particles, for example, there is a wave function whose evolution through time is governed by the Schrödinger equation for that system. Now the interesting thing about quantum mechanics is that, unlike classical mechanics, it doesn't specify or predict a single configuration for this system of particles at a future time t. The wave function assigns a value at t to each of the configurations possibly resulting from the initial conditions; by applying Born's Rule to those values we get an assignment of probabilities to each of those possible configurations at t. Accordingly, we aren't told which configuration will in fact result (given the initial conditions) when the system is measured at t; instead we are given a distribution of probabilities for the many possible outcomes. Clearly miracles (parting the waters, rising from the dead, etc.) are not incompatible with these assignments. (No doubt such events would be assigned very low probabilities; but of course we don't need quantum mechanics to know that such events are improbable.) Further, on collapse interpretations such as those of Ghirardi, Rimini, and Weber, there is plenty of room for divine activity. Indeed, God could actually be the cause of the collapses, and of the way in which they occur (i.e., where P is the possibility that gets actualized at t, it could be that God causes P to be actualized then). (This could perhaps be seen as a halfway house between occasionalism and secondary causation.) With the advent of quantum mechanics, therefore, there seems to be even less reason to see special divine action in the world as somehow incompatible with science.

Nevertheless, many who are entirely aware of the quantum mechanical revolution still find a problem with special divine action. For example, there is the “Divine Action Project” (Wildman 1988–2003, 31–75), a 15-year series of conferences and publications that began in 1988. So far these conferences have resulted in some 6 books of essays involving at least 50 or more authors from various fields of science together with philosophers and theologians, including many of the most prominent writers in the field. Most of these authors find a problem with special divine action. That is because they believe that a satisfactory account of God's action in the world would have to be noninterventionist, as Wildman says. Thus Arthur Peacocke, commenting on a certain proposal for divine action:

God would have to be conceived of as actually manipulating micro-events (at the atomic, molecular, and according to some, quantum levels) in these initiating fluctuations on the natural world in order to produce the results at the macroscopic level which God wills. But such a conception of God's action … would then be no different in principle from that of God intervening in the order of nature with all the problems that that evokes for a rationally coherent belief in God as the creator of that order. (Peacocke 2004)
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Re: Science a positive influence on society and politics sho

Post by Super Nova » Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:48 am

Yes if science was not around we would still have a flat earth,all the stars would revolve around us. In modern society I tend to think science is playing a more prominant role than ever eg Global warming,Whale killing.Human nature shows we follow whoever has the loudest voice eg communism.But eventually truth thru science will prevail.
Religion is necessary forthe following reasons:
- If we are to believe science and humans evolved, then organised religion was the mechaanism that allows a civilisation to form and be managed/control/governed.
- People need to have explaination fo rthe unexplainable. We evolved to have a natural need to believe.
- It has been shown that people with faith are generally happier and of better health.
- Praying is good for your mental health.
- Without a believe system in a god, people would need a different believe system A system based on science would have us believing we have no purpose, we are just an eletro-chemical reaction that evolved. Most people could not cope with that reality and civialisation would crumble. Peopl need to believe their is a consequence to their actions, some need to feel it continues into the afterlife.
- We always have had science, form the moment we asked why? and then investigated it and formed a theory.
_ God is a theory that was formed early in our evolution
- God is the product of scientific approach that just has not be fully replaced by modern science because it cleverly does not need proof. God only reveals himself to those that truly believe.
_ Science and god can co-exist.
- We need a believe in God.
- Without god we have not purpose.
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Re: Science a positive influence on society and politics sho

Post by freediver » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:39 am

Science is now back on the side of whaling.

The 'conflict' is usually overplayed for dramatic reasons or to fit in with political agendas. For example, most famour historical scientists undertook their investigations for religious reasons. It is only recently that science has been a 'career' you can support a family on. I suggest that rather than the 'recieved wisdom' of science being in conflict with religion throughout European history, the opposite is in fact true.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/evolution/chri ... ience.html

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Re: Science a positive influence on society and politics sho

Post by Super Nova » Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:34 pm

HIGHERBEAM wrote: Yes if science was not around we would still have a flat earth,all the stars would revolve around us. In modern society I tend to think science is playing a more prominant role than ever eg Global warming,Whale killing.Human nature shows we follow whoever has the loudest voice eg communism.But eventually truth thru science will prevail.
I think your argument is flawed.

It’s based on the premise that science has really only been involved since the days where we thought the world was flat, that the stars revolved around the earth… etc.

I think that scientific enquiry, although not labelled this, has been the bases of all human progress. The observation that the sun moves it’s position through the seasons lead to us being able to predict seasons. Plans grow from seeds so if I collect seeds, I can control the place and timing of planting them. Observation followed by the formation of a theory for why these things occurred, then the theory was tested by their predictions being confirmed by what was later observed.

When these theories included a god or gods, the explanation and therefore the theory was supported by what was observed.

If the volcano erupts and we throw a few virgins into the lava the volcanoe gods are appeased. They did not know that after the eruption the pressure was releases and it will go quite again until next time the pressure builds up again. To there thinking, the virgin sacrifice satisfied the gods because the eruption simmered down. That related the effect of their action to the observations, clearly incorrectly.

When people needed an explanation for why, the unexplainable was attributed to the gods.

Around this formed power and politics. Those who could communicate with the gods became powerful Around them formed organised religion. Around them formed the beginning of civilisation.

With organised religion and the power that come with it, those in power like to keep it. Like the precious they will do anything to protect their status and control over the masses. Anything that threaten their power and those who spoke against their dogma were heretics and crushed. This did reduce scientific inquiry for periods of time.
When it became clear that observation of the world no longer aligned with the teachings of the catholic church, they felt threatened but had to cave in when the evidence was over whelming. Also the black plague and the like caused people to lose faith in religion. Truth come through.

People have evolved to need faith.

A faith in science is not a faith. It has no spiritual bases and does not deal with the matters of the inherent nature of our inner selves.

Science has always been around. Religion and science were linked in the past and are still in many ways today.
The role of science has not really changed. It is just we know so much more and it’s influence is the greatest it has ever been. It’s relationship with religion has changed because religion does not run and control our western societies. The political landscape has changed.

I think the main change is the relationship between religion and the political power (government). Government now turn to science for guidance instead of religious teaching.

So the relationship between science and religion while it has evolved, it remains.

The relationship between religion and the political has change immensely.
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Re: Science a positive influence on society and politics sho

Post by boxy » Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:48 pm

HIGHERBEAM wrote:Should science play any role in political thinking and society.
It does. There's no should about it.

The real question is, should science have to put up with the bullshit that politics inflicts upon it.

Case.in.point... the Australian Vaccination Network.

Pseudo-scientific cvnts.
"But you will run your fluffy bunny mouth at me. And I will take it, to play poker."

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Re: Science a positive influence on society and politics sho

Post by Super Nova » Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:51 pm

I think Science should lead political thinking.

There are not enough scientists in politics.
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Re: Science a positive influence on society and politics sho

Post by HIGHERBEAM » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:43 pm

Science and technology work quite fine in the problems they address, we have lots of cool gadgets and the knowledge that the human kind is acquiring through the different sciences is amazing. Actually that knowledge is so vast that in most universities most of the faculties are about sciences, with only some related with other disciplines like philosophy, arts, laws, and so on, as a proof of the vast knowledge coined by science and the interest in experts in that knowledge. Moreover, there are faculties for political sciences, which could settle the question, to some extent.

Science, at best, relates to efficacy of action. Which goal to take action towards or how efficacious to be are things beyond the scope of science. Science should, therefore, always play second fiddle to politics even if we decide that once the political decision is made, that we must employ the "findings" of science to go about achieving our purpose in the most efficacious way possible.

Science does not necessarily help you set goals or values but it can certainly help you acheive them. The current status of science in politics however is a sad one. Gone is the willingness of personal sacrifice for the greater good of society, gone is the ability to defer current benefits for the longer term gain. I begin to doubt the ability of democracy to set and acheive long term goals and planning to allow its continued survival. Each new election brings a complete change in policy and direction and each politician is only concerned with winning the next election not with the long term welfare of the country.

The american political system would be bought to a standstill at election time if not for the scientists inventing the computerised system of voting.As the world becomes more globalised those sorts of inventions will help politicians maintain contact with their global audience in a world goverment.
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Re: Science a positive influence on society and politics sho

Post by mellie » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:53 pm

I thing both science and religion should be taken into consideration.

science and religion have been conflicting with each other for thousands of years, and probably will for many more.

As for science having to put up with being stifled by religion, or religion desecrated, diminished by science... no, and in an ideal world neither wold impinge on one another, right?

What if they were always meant to?

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Re: Science a positive influence on society and politics sho

Post by mellie » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:58 pm

Politics and religion are synonymous with church and state.

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