Are we Overgoverned?

Australian Federal, State and Local Politics
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Rorschach
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Are we Overgoverned?

Post by Rorschach » Fri Jan 06, 2017 9:19 am

Well its on again.
Last year Baird tried to amalgamate local councils into much larger councils.
Queensland State Government doesn't have a Senate.
We have Local, State and Federal governments.
Some like Bob Hawke say State Governments should be abolished.
Some say the Federal Government is interfering too much at a State level.
It's not state government we should abolish. Sydney's councils should go
James Robertson

Public apathy about Sydney's councils is growing so fast it's becoming profitable in more ways than one.

Despite it being compulsory, 400,000 people, or about 20 per cent of voters, did not cast a ballot in local government elections last year, a consecutive record low.

In May 2016 the NSW State Government announced the forced amalgamation of more than 40 local councils into 19 new councils, but what are the legalities of this contentious issue?

The trend could spell future profit for the state's electoral commission, which is notionally entitled to $20 million in revenue for fining no-shows, or nearly 50 per cent more than the election might have cost to stage (the bill is still being finalised).

Five ongoing corruption investigations or inquiries into representatives at five Sydney councils were launched last year.

Add in another five into councillors and staff that have featured at the ICAC in the past five years and you have councils responsible for $5 billion in development annually.

Global corruption watchdogs rank Australia alongside Scandinavian nations as corruption free.

But some of the stuff revealed by council inquiries would blow an Indonesian ombudsman's hair back.

At Botany Council, the ICAC heard of several million dollars being paid for fake or inflated invoices, a high five figures "microwave" budget and senior managers spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on overseas travel.

How did this go unnoticed in a budget of only $50 million at an organisation open to democratic scrutiny?

Nobody cares.

Over the New Year break, former prime minister Bob Hawke called for state governments to be abolished, citing familiar arguments.


But it's suburban councils we should think about abolishing.

The factors that have fostered council corruption are making them less relevant.

Clean and successful government depends as much on the people looking in and scrutinising from the outside as the quality of its members.

The Herald is the only major news organisation to maintain a full-time team devoted to scrutinising the activities of local government as readers display a marked preference for news about quasi-celebrities in Canberra.

Elsewhere the task is left largely to local newspapers, which are in decline and where reporters say councils can use their advertising budgets to apply pressure over critical coverage.

Merging the city's councils and doubling their size will help, but only ever so much.

This is a symptom of a bigger and terminal decline in local communities and civic life, set forth first by television and then by the internet.

The City of Sydney, which is well run, of a high-profile and pursues projects of enough scale and substance to draw scrutiny, is an exception.

But in the rest of Sydney's councils the poor quality of political representatives (and the senior bureaucrats they appoint) is at crisis point.

Candidates for councils are now mostly determined not just by political parties but by factions within them and local chiefs who control branches.

Right faction dissidents in the Liberal Party publicly claim that its party tickets in many areas are determined by some of the lobbyists who have come to hold enormous sway in its two dominant factions.

If that is true, the risk for corruption is probably much greater at the local level, where scrutiny is scant and developers are circling, than in federal politics. ​

The benefit to having elected representatives is that they can be pulled into line by the public.

But this seldom happens in council life, and when it does, it usually concerns a swimming pool.

It's worth asking whether the council chambers could be substituted with a Swiss-like system that allows the public to challenge decisions if enough residents sign petitions opposing them.

We have already entered a great anti-democratic experiment.

About half of Sydney's councils are in the freezer while the Baird government prosecutes its merger plans.

Councils are also being stripped progressively of planning powers by the state government.

Removing elected representatives from councils has brought about some immediate wins, such as the cancellation, by an unelected administrator, of decisions made to the benefit of elected Auburn councillors.

But there have already been complaints about administrators acting against the will of local residents, most notably the Inner West Council's (largely irrelevant) stance on WestConnex.

It's time to weigh the gains of having professionals run local government against the loss of voters' franchise. Importantly, we should see if most people notice.

Local democracy is a fine idea, but its time might be up.

James Robertson is state political reporter.
Personally I think we should retain all 3 levels of government, because we need proper scrutiny at each level, by people in touch with the grassroots at that level.
But... each level should have clear demarkation of responsibilities.
Each should have a corruption authority on watch.
Each should be trimmed down as to the number of members required to to the job.
DOLT - A person who is stupid and entirely tedious at the same time, like bwian. Oblivious to their own mental incapacity. On IGNORE - Warrior, mellie, Nom De Plume, FLEKTARD

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mantra
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Re: Are we Overgoverned?

Post by mantra » Fri Jan 06, 2017 11:18 am

Rorschach wrote:Well its on again.
Last year Baird tried to amalgamate local councils into much larger councils.
Queensland State Government doesn't have a Senate.
We have Local, State and Federal governments.
Some like Bob Hawke say State Governments should be abolished.
Some say the Federal Government is interfering too much at a State level.
It's not state government we should abolish. Sydney's councils should go
James Robertson

Public apathy about Sydney's councils is growing so fast it's becoming profitable in more ways than one.
Amalgamation is more costly to the taxpayer. Two councils have been amalgamated in my area. I didn't have a clue that it had happened until I got two large bills instead of one. Rates went up at least 35% and there was no notice - even though the new council claimed there was.

I'm surprised there's apathy instead of rage.

Maybe state governments should be abolished, but cutting out various government authorities will cost more. They'll use more contractors and there will be even more inefficiency.

cods
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Re: Are we Overgoverned?

Post by cods » Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:13 pm

mantra wrote:
Rorschach wrote:Well its on again.
Last year Baird tried to amalgamate local councils into much larger councils.
Queensland State Government doesn't have a Senate.
We have Local, State and Federal governments.
Some like Bob Hawke say State Governments should be abolished.
Some say the Federal Government is interfering too much at a State level.
It's not state government we should abolish. Sydney's councils should go
James Robertson

Public apathy about Sydney's councils is growing so fast it's becoming profitable in more ways than one.
Amalgamation is more costly to the taxpayer. Two councils have been amalgamated in my area. I didn't have a clue that it had happened until I got two large bills instead of one. Rates went up at least 35% and there was no notice - even though the new council claimed there was.

I'm surprised there's apathy instead of rage.

Maybe state governments should be abolished, but cutting out various government authorities will cost more. They'll use more contractors and there will be even more inefficiency.

I dont understand how rates can go up when two councils amalgamate it doesnt make sense and I would want to know HOW COME...

two councils means two empires ... two lots of people thinking they know whats best for everyone...in some case two Mayors who all seem to have the need to travel overseas....if we are deemed to be stuck with all these mini govts.. they should be restricted in what they can do with ratepayers money..

when we watch as they have all this sister city crap.... huge offices with a full bar...

where mismanagement doesnt get them the sack they actually have to break the law to get that..

its a shambles just about all you can say about all levels of govt in this country its a huge burden for 22 million people

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Neferti
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Re: Are we Overgoverned?

Post by Neferti » Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:27 pm

In Canberra, we have the ACT Valuations Office .... :mrgreen:

http://www.revenue.act.gov.au/duties-an ... valuations

I am sure that we aren't Robinson Crusoe. "Valuers" go out and "determine" what the land in your suburb is "worth" ... and the local Government/Council charges you, via some "accounting" ... size of block x whatever ....

It has been noted (for eons) that where these "Valuers" live hasn't had huge increases in Rates. Amazing, what?

A bit like the guy who comes and reads your electricity meter .... who checks that to see whether he got the figures right?

While we are at it, what about the Postie? He often shoves letters from elsewhere in my mailbox ....

Public SERVANTS ... :roll:

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Rorschach
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Re: Are we Overgoverned?

Post by Rorschach » Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:32 pm

Well it used to be that Aldermen and Mayors could not live on the pittance they received for serving their communities. I haven't heard that there have been major changes in those arrangements. Labor has always used local government as a training ground for its candidates both state and federal as and as a means to gain them a profile in the local community before an election.

State and Federal governments are where the money can be made.
DOLT - A person who is stupid and entirely tedious at the same time, like bwian. Oblivious to their own mental incapacity. On IGNORE - Warrior, mellie, Nom De Plume, FLEKTARD

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Outlaw Yogi
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Re: Are we Overgoverned?

Post by Outlaw Yogi » Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:03 pm

Are we Overgoverned?
Why's this presented as a question rather than a statement of fact?
We're over regulated, over taxed and over obligated.
Rorschach wrote: Last year Baird tried to amalgamate local councils into much larger councils.
Peter Beattie did a forced council amalgamations in 2008, not long before the GFC hit, under the pretence of "saving money", but really it was for reduced representation.
Rorschach wrote:Queensland State Government doesn't have a Senate.
Correct .. well sort of, technically Qld has no Legislative Assembly like other states.
Abolished in 1922, and the state govt is virtually a law unto itself as a result.
mantra wrote: Amalgamation is more costly to the taxpayer.
Right on the money!
When Beattie did his forced amalgamations most councils were solvent.
For example Perry Shire (quite small) had $5mil in the bank, but Gayndah Shire was in debt.
Perry Shire was pushed into North Burnett Regional Council overseen by the former Gayndah Shire Council. The rates have more than doubled, the roads gone into disrepaired goat tracks, and the free tip fenced off with costly dumping fees imposed, ect ect ect.
Bundaberg too was solvent, but not any more, despite big rate hikes.
About the only ones not crying poor mouth with their hand out is Noosa which deamalgamated.
If Donald Trump is so close to the Ruskis, why couldn't he get Vladimir Putin to put novichok in Xi Jjinping's lipstick?

cods
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Re: Are we Overgoverned?

Post by cods » Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:22 pm

mantra wrote:
Amalgamation is more costly to the taxpayer.

Right on the money! by yogi
When Beattie did his forced amalgamations most councils were solvent.
For example Perry Shire (quite small) had $5mil in the bank, but Gayndah Shire was in debt.
Perry Shire was pushed into North Burnett Regional Council overseen by the former Gayndah Shire Council. The rates have more than doubled, the roads gone into disrepaired goat tracks, and the free tip fenced off with costly dumping fees imposed, ect ect ect.
Bundaberg too was solvent, but not any more, despite big rate hikes.
About the only ones not crying poor mouth with their hand out is Noosa which deamalgamate


how can any council have $5m in the Bank... :roll: :roll: thats like private schools hording money yet still able to put their fees up..

wrong wrong wrong..... a lot of councils in NSW at any rate have gone into receivership....why because of corruption and fraud and infighting and incompetence a big FAIL in fact..

so you guys want MORE govt.. well you disagree with amalgamation so you must do...

if your rates DOUBLE you can complain and ask for details.....write to the ombudsman...I know I would...doubling rates is a BIGGY and not many would be game.

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Outlaw Yogi
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Re: Are we Overgoverned?

Post by Outlaw Yogi » Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:11 pm

cods wrote:mantra wrote:
Amalgamation is more costly to the taxpayer.

Right on the money! by yogi
When Beattie did his forced amalgamations most councils were solvent.
For example Perry Shire (quite small) had $5mil in the bank, but Gayndah Shire was in debt.
Perry Shire was pushed into North Burnett Regional Council overseen by the former Gayndah Shire Council. The rates have more than doubled, the roads gone into disrepaired goat tracks, and the free tip fenced off with costly dumping fees imposed, ect ect ect.
Bundaberg too was solvent, but not any more, despite big rate hikes.
About the only ones not crying poor mouth with their hand out is Noosa which deamalgamate


how can any council have $5m in the Bank...
Simple! ... before amalgamation nearly all the councils were solvent .. that means they had money in the bank ... and it's since they've become insolvent/in debt that they've been jacking the rates up.

For example I bought my block in June 1992. The council was Kolan Shire Council .. although we called it the "Clown Shire Circus" and my rates were $300 a year.
Over a 17 year period the rates went from $300 to $500 a year .. not too bad I'd say.
Since Peter Beattie's amalgamation and vaccumed into the Bundaberg Regional Council the rates have gone up about $100 per year and are now about $1000. People in Bundy with houses have had their rates double from $1k to $2k+

People with blocks around Mt Perry (formerly Perry Shire council - now sucked in North Burnett Regional Council) had rates around $800, and since amalgamation now have rates around $2500.
cods wrote: :roll: :roll: thats like private schools hording money yet still able to put their fees up..
What a load of shit! ... Councils have authority that's hard to buck and responsibilities they'd get out of if they could. Private schools are money making enterprises with no authority unless the parents of the student agrees to it.


cods wrote:so you guys want MORE govt.. well you disagree with amalgamation so you must do...
Personally I'd prefer an anarchy free for all .. y'know with lynch mobs sorting out the local scum, but if we have to have some governments and potentially not others, I'd ditch local councils first.
But if you want to keep Australia's essential resources like water as possessions of Australians collectively rather than some foreign bank via a private water company you need as many levels of government as you can get.
cods wrote: if your rates DOUBLE you can complain and ask for details.....write to the ombudsman...I know I would...doubling rates is a BIGGY and not many would be game.
What fucken planet do you live on?
If Donald Trump is so close to the Ruskis, why couldn't he get Vladimir Putin to put novichok in Xi Jjinping's lipstick?

cods
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Re: Are we Overgoverned?

Post by cods » Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:53 am

what an idiot!

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Rorschach
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Re: Are we Overgoverned?

Post by Rorschach » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:40 am

Councils have money... they are allowed to have money... its due to the revenue they as a local government gather from the local population. These monies cover running costs, and maintenance... they save money for the same reasons and for building future infrastructure.

If 2 councils merge then they get bigger obviously and their rates will change it may be that one local area gets cheaper rates and the other higher or it may be that both are higher. Problems occur when one of the 2 areas are preferenced by council and the other allowed to degenerate or there services to decline.

Sometimes minor savings can be made, but generally costs continue to rise no matter what and services to decline.
DOLT - A person who is stupid and entirely tedious at the same time, like bwian. Oblivious to their own mental incapacity. On IGNORE - Warrior, mellie, Nom De Plume, FLEKTARD

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