Do those who send people off to war

[JW Frogen]

I have read the book Tom, I found it savagely funny.

I just disagree with you about its relationship to the reality of war, having been in war, unlike you.

There is one ideological voice, Heller, (unlike many novels or unlike war where there is a plurality of different power realities and voices conflicting), this is a prerequsit of the comic satiric novel, it is not the voice of a historical novel, which would seek to see the Colonel's point of view: no one human being able to grasp or interpret every aspect of war or the motives of others in war, so the general narration of the novel is of one idea of war, Heller-Yossarian, the rest of the characters playing supporting character to that point of view.

It is a novel of war as personal existence. Not war as macro reality. (I could write a novel about my personal experience in Bosnia, which too would by cynical, though with personal satisfaction that I trancended that cynicism for a larger goal, or I could write one of the macro causes of the conflict and how it was really resolved, including those who had to die to resolve it, which is a very different novel. Both novels would be true from the perspective they are written from, it is just the latter seeks understanding while the former seeks personal revelation.)

Your view that I disagree with it's macro reality so I must not have read it would be like saying every reader of novels about love that do not have your pre-conceived notions about love do not understand love.

An intelligent mind can read a novel with a plot premise they do not agree with as history or reality and still find it entertaining, even great art. Art is not reality.

Think about that Tom, and perhaps look for art that does not agree with Tom's reality before hand to realise this concept? And to get the most out of art, try to stretch a bit.

Fiction is not war Tom, no more than porn is sex; novels are a personal reflection of experience, not the macro experience, and certainly not THE experience.

You can not read your way to an understanding of war Tom, sorry, no more than you can sex.

Heller’s voice is of the comic-futility, (there is little or no examination of what they are fighting for, like the Holocaust).

This is understandable, war is a conundrum, the individual desire for self preseveation will often conflict with the good of humanity or the goal of the war, war often puts the individual in this conflict but war has it’s own purpose beyond the individual.

There are strategic goals, macro goals that if not met, at least for democratic soldiers, mean the individual ceases to exists as they know the concept of individual.

They cease to be free; they cease to even be critical of war. (Try being openly critical of war in Nazi Germany, the country Heller's protagonist was being forced to continue to fly against. He may have saw this missions as futile but in the large scheme of things how would he really know they were?)

A novel could have just as easily been have written about why Yossarian was really just an egotist not considering the sacrifices of others, who took even greater risks, blaming a Colonel who did what he did to insure victory even at the cost of his own men, novels have the luxury of personal ideology.

A novel could have been written about how Yossaians angst was really not about the war at all, but about his personal angst, understandable, if not noble.

War does not care; there is only victory or defeat in war.

Catch 22 is a great novel; it is neither war nor a history of WW2. It is not the macro reality of that war, or any war, it is one man's angst about being forced into that war and his comic, cynical attempt to make sense of his personal experience.

Do not kid yourself, in WW2, or Iraq, who obtains victory or defeat matters for those of us who want to continue the ability to write novels of savage comic self-indulgence.

Had many Yossaians not been forced to fly one more time (no matter how he perceived it) or even more noble volunteered to, Heller would have had no free world to write in at all.

[Jovial Monk]

Oh bullshit. Bullshit, bullshit!

It is rather Kafka-esque. It is not about people driven because it helps win a war.

[JW Frogen]

By the way, Scorpy is a coward.

[JW Frogen]

Remember the brit army sent up the Tigris?

They were wiped out to a man, only the doctor was allowed to live to tell what happened. A town called Kut (to the immense hilarity of Dutch school boys.)

Starting a war is easier than finishing one or withdrawing from one.

Wrong river wrong war, you are thinking of the British Afgan war.

You are right, wars are always easier to start than finish, making Saddam’s wars, including this one (all he had to do is comply with 12 years of resolutions) a tragedy, yet a democratic opportunity for most Iraqis, one the peace at any price people have never considered for them, even if most Iraqis have risked their lives for it.

[Jubial Priest]

You can not read your way to an understanding of war Tom, sorry, no more than you can sex.

Oh bullshit. Bullshit, bullshit!

I think that JM has as little understanding of war as he does of sex with females. Although I gather he has probably come across some quite different books on sex than than the average person (pun intended)

It seems that most of the apologists are adding to the French school of battle techniques
Munitions for sale- never fired-dropped once

Arm chair pansy warriors that think that a nice sit down and a cup of tea will fix all the problems of the world shit me to tears

[Jovial Monk]

Hmmm sheepy comes back from hospital. . .and Jubial Dickhead returns here!

[Auzgurl]

Hmmm sheepy comes back from hospital. . .and Jubial Dickhead returns here!

hhhhmmmm indeed.

[Jovial Monk]

And Kut is in Iraq

let us face it, the Brits have been whupped just about everywhere, even if in some places they came back and whupped the original whupper. I will have fries with that big Whupper.

[JW Frogen]

And Kut is in Iraq

let us face it, the Brits have been whupped just about everywhere, even if in some places they came back and whupped the original whupper. I will have fries with that big Whupper.

I think you are entertwining stories, the Doctor surviving was in the first Afgan expidition.

The Brits have been victorious in many wars, oh wait, the American Revolution.

[Jovial Monk]

Hmmm you could be right, Brit garrison of Kut surrendered to Ali Pasha in 1916