Bail out

[helian]

"Woe is me!!!!!!!!!!!!

Woe is me!!!!!!!!!!!!

I hope we, (being Western civilisation and democracy) are defeated. I need this for my own sense of self unworth."

Not really a noble cause when Iraqis have told you time and time again they want what you have (but can not support or lift one finger, even on a keyboard, now how weak is that? To defend, like they did.)

Woe is me. It is all about “me” on the Left.

Iraqis need not apply.

But they did, and we have just about won this war, and when we do (because even Obama recognisees this now, if you can not) you will move on to another self-indulgent despair.

Thank God you will never have any power to make your own nihilism real power.

You see... There you go again. No idea what 'won' means past bombs and bullets.

No answer to local political issues... as if the military is the only answer to the problem. How do you propose to deal with al-Sadr? How do you propose to deal with Iraqi religious aspiration? Is winning to you just a point in time? How do you propose Iraqis deal with resurgence after the US has 'won', stops paying off the warlords and goes home? No doubt you'll consider failure to be an Iraqi problem.

Have you read about the last time the US overthrew a regime in Iran? The Mosaddeq government and reinstalled the Shah (who became a despot) ? The final result 20 years later was the Islamic Revolution... The US 'won'.

[JW Frogen]

The military is not the only answer to the problem (unless one wanted to contain Saddam forevermore like you) democracy is the political solution.

The one most Iraqis embraced at great risk to their own lives.

The one you would leave at no risk to your life.

Such as it is.

[helian]

What the US forgot in its zeal to not only overthrow the Saddam regime but to dismantle the state apparatus is that Saddam had for decades effectively repressed religious and sectarian political aspiration. The annihilation of the entire structure gave Islamists heart in that they were handed a once in a century opportunity to realise their political ambitions (never mind Shi’ite vengeance against Sunnis). In the absence of a great secular statesman (an Iraqi Ataturk) who could impose secularism (again) in Iraq and repress non-secular political aspiration, whose command over a powerful, experienced and confident military is unchallenged and unquestioned there is little upon which to build a stable secular state. Iran will not tolerate a permanent or long term US presence in Iraq and no doubt their allies are lying low waiting for the first moves of a new US administration before continuing the struggle.

As Palin said “We’ll know when we’re finished in Iraq when the Iraqi government can govern its people and when the Iraqi security forces can secure its people” and therein lies the rhetoric of a politician. She cannot and will not say when or how the US will leave because there is no such thing as a singular moment in time called ‘won’ All that she can offer is that the US military dig in for years and endure an intolerable war of attrition, counting the cost in thousands of soldiers lives and trillions of dollars in the hope that a strong non US reliant local statesman will take up the cause… or until the US public’s patience and appetite for war is exhausted.

Palin : “We cannot afford to lose [in Iraq]”… Can the US afford to ‘win’ with the domestic economy requiring a government injection of three quarters of a trillion dollars just to keep it from going into depression?

The final legacy of one of the most incompetent Presidents in US history.

Even Nixon had China.

[JW Frogen]

Quoting Sarah Palin as your foreign policy guru, that is novel.

So you want secularism do you? At all costs.

Saddam invading Kuwait, Saddam supporting non-secular terror organizations secularism?

Real secularism cannot exist without democracy.

True, Al Qeada went into the breach of Bush’s occupational incompetence but when Bush finally listened to some one other than Rumsfeld Al Qeada got their Asses kicked.

Indeed Al Qeada said Iraq was the central front, the Baghdad Caliphate.

And now they are defeated there.

I know you hate this, despair being your religion of choice.

I think you have lost Iraq, it will now most likely be a pro Western democracy, even Obama is conceding that.

Time to move on to Afghanistan Helian and see if you can cheer lead some defeat there.

[dribble critic]

shit dribbling down the chin.

down the chin, shit dribbles.

dribbles and bubbles.

like a slug sliding though salt.

[JW Frogen]

I for one am a libertarian and so would leave Swami’s sex life out of this discussion.

[helian]

Quoting Sarah Palin as your foreign policy guru, that is novel.

So you want secularism do you? At all costs.

Saddam invading Kuwait, Saddam supporting non-secular terror organizations secularism?

Real secularism cannot exist without democracy.

True, Al Qeada went into the breach of Bush’s occupational incompetence but when Bush finally listened to some one other than Rumsfeld Al Qeada got their Asses kicked.

Indeed Al Qeada said Iraq was the central front, the Baghdad Caliphate.

And now they are defeated there.

I know you hate this, despair being your religion of choice.

I think you have lost Iraq, it will now most likely be a pro Western democracy, even Obama is conceding that.

Time to move on to Afghanistan Helian and see if you can cheer lead some defeat there.

Saddam Hussein did not support non-secular terror organisations, Islamists were his enemies as much as they were America's... that's the tragic irony of all this... apparently Bush was unable to grasp that concept.

No one has been defeated in Iraq. Shi'ites have been allowed to ethnically cleanse the formerly Sunni parts of Baghdad and warlords have been paid off... and when the money runs out...

al-Sadr is holding back, probably on advice from Tehran who will be waiting the outcome of the US elections... but no matter who wins, the aspirations of Islamists will not be blunted.

Secularism is government characterised by separation of church and state... that's "real" secularism... nothing necessarily to do with democracy.

The answer to Iraq will be in grand statesmanship and dialogue with Iran... nothing less than that.

So, when are you off with your 1st army of the naive to overthrow the North Korean regime... (you know they've got weapons of mass destruction over there?)

[Mr Ben]

This was done during the savings and loan crises, it worked and even provided the US treasury with long-term profit.

I fail to see the connection.

Today major banks and national/global financial institutions are failing, rather than local mortgage brokers.

Please explain the connection.

The bond market holding the debt is interntional but the same economic fundementalis apply, if a major buyer (the US holds) a significant amount of these bonds it could stablise the market and then when US property prices rise again (as they will) make the bonds valuable again thus attracting buyers for them both domestic and internationally.

Indeed because it is an international market the profit for the US tax payer this time around may be even greater.

So what does this "crisis" have to do with home loans, when the crisis is caused by not property speculators, but by currency speculators and hedge funds/asset strippers?

[JW Frogen]

Saddam Hussein did not support non-secular terror organisations, Islamists were his enemies as much as they were America's... that's the tragic irony of all this... apparently Bush was unable to grasp that concept.
?)

Saddam negotiated with Al Qeada, allowed Zarcaqwi (Al Qeada’s Iraq man) to receive medical treatment in Iraq and remain in the country, Saddam supported and paid for suicide bombers in Israel, most of whom where Hamas or Hezbollah sponsored, (Islamicist terrorists), Saddam post his disasterous Gulf War defeat reversed his anti Islam secular polices and went on a huge mousque building program, legislated that the term "Allahu Akbar" ("God is great"), in Saddam's handwriting, was added to the national flag.

He attempted to court any anti US Islamic group.

Saddam had no real ideological convictions other than his own power and was willing to deal with anyone he thought was in his interests.


As for no one being defeated, you might want to look up the Anbar Awakening and the defeat of Al Qeada in the Sunni triangle.

The violence and ethnic cleansing between Sunnis and Shias (both groups participated) occurred before the surge, it has been stopped by the surge, where as your and Obama’s strategy would have been to leave and let it become full blown genocide.

Negotiate with Iran over Iraq?

Typical Leftist arrogance. We will negotiate for the Iraqi government with a government destabilizing Iraq; Iraqis once again need not apply. Only the democratically elected Iraqi government (one that would have never existed if you had your way, preferring mass murdering Saddam and sons forever more) can negotiate with Iraq concerning Iran’s violations of Iraqi sovereignty and sponsorship of terror in the country.

But as 20 years of negotiations with Iran reveal it does not produce much in the way of democracy or stability.

Here is the basic problem with you lot, you really have no democratic convictions at all, you will not stand or fight for anything, support democracy for any people on Earth if it is hard, you are always willing to give any blustering tyrant his due, because to oppose them is too hard for you.

You can not, will not, do not know how to, do hard.

And so you appease and talk, which is what ever dictator on the planet wants....your chatter and surrender.

And you can live with that just as long as you never have to live under that, which you will if your world view ever becomes the democratic norm.

[JW Frogen]

So what does this "crisis" have to do with home loans, when the crisis is caused by not property speculators, but by currency speculators and hedge funds/asset strippers?

You may want to research how this all started, type in Sub Prime Loans, or if not chant who did what to the brown cow how now?