Is there a role for nuclear energy?

Australian Federal, State and Local Politics
Forum rules
Don't poop in these threads. This isn't Europe, okay? There are rules here!
Post Reply
Viking King.

Re: Is there a role for nuclear energy?

Post by Viking King. » Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:35 am

Science works in various ways when putting nuclear or atomic energy together, various amounts of atoms and so on, what they call mother and daughter elements are made of different structures.
This is the result of nuclear energy and it's half life, this is only one example.
Half-lifeA more commonly used parameter is the half-life. Given a sample of a particular radionuclide, the half-life is the time taken for half the radionuclide's atoms to decay. The half-life is related to the decay constant as follows:
(there was a formula in here but it didn't come through)

This relationship between the half-life and the decay constant shows that highly radioactive substances are quickly spent, while those that radiate weakly endure longer. Half-lives of known radionuclides vary widely, from more than
10 to the power 19 years (such as for very nearly stable nuclides)

Outlaw Yogi

Re: Is there a role for nuclear energy?

Post by Outlaw Yogi » Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:32 pm

lisa jones wrote:I'm a bottom line person .. so I just wanna know is seafood gonna be safe to eat anymore? Yes or no?
Jovial Monk wrote:Safe if caught down here.

For a while, but eventually ocean currents will circulate radioactive particles throughout all sea water.

Most of the stuff has a half life of a few days,none is at dangerous levels.
Rubbish!

Iodine 131 has a half life of 8 days and is dangerous for about 3 weeks.

Cesium 137 has a half life of 30 years and is dangerous for centuries.

Strontium 90 has a half life of 28 years and also dangerous for centuries.

All of it is at very dangerous levels.

The iodine and cesium is airbourne and will contaminate whatever it settles on, the seawater contamination is mainly strontium, so with reference safety, interested parties may like to consider ...
Biochemistry

Together with caesium isotopes 134Cs, 137Cs, and iodine isotope 131I it was among the most important isotopes regarding health impacts after the Chernobyl disaster.

Strontium-90 is a "bone seeker" that exhibits biochemical behavior similar to calcium, the next lighter Group 2 element. After entering the organism, most often by ingestion with contaminated food or water, about 70–80% of the dose gets excreted. Virtually all remaining strontium-90 is deposited in bones and bone marrow, with the remaining 1% remaining in blood and soft tissues. Its presence in bones can cause bone cancer, cancer of nearby tissues, and leukemia. Exposure to 90Sr can be tested by a bioassay, most commonly by urinalysis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strontium-90

Meanwhile ....

Japan nuclear firm aims to end crisis within nine months
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ap ... ine-months
The company at the centre of Japan's nuclear crisis says it hopes to bring the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant under control in six to nine months, but cannot say when tens of thousands of people forced to evacuate the area will be able to return home.

Outlaw Yogi

Re: Is there a role for nuclear energy?

Post by Outlaw Yogi » Fri Apr 29, 2011 9:53 am

Alabama Tornadoes 2011: Emergency Declared at Browns Ferry Nuclear Plant
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/139188/ ... photos.htm
Alabama officials have declared an emergency at a nuclear power plant in the northern part of the state and have started shutting it down in the aftermath of severe storms and tornadoes that have pounded the state.

Browns Ferry hit by major storms
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Br ... 04112.html
One 161 kV line is available to Browns Ferry, as are all the plant's eight diesel generators. One of these was out of service for maintenance when the storms hit, but work was completed quickly and the generator put back to work.

Nuclear dilemma: Adequate insurance too expensive
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... 5Dlp_z8oiA
From the U.S. to Japan, it's illegal to drive a car without sufficient insurance, yet governments have chosen to run the world's 443 nuclear power plants with hardly any insurance coverage whatsoever.

Japan's Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear disaster, which will leave taxpayers there with a massive bill, highlights one of the industry's key weaknesses — that nuclear power is a viable source for cheap energy only if plants go uninsured. The plant's operator, Tepco, had no disaster insurance.



Nuclear Plants' Emergency-Power Rules Questioned
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... lenews_wsj
The top U.S. nuclear regulator questioned Thursday whether the nation's nuclear plants were prepared to deal with losses of power that last several hours or even days, a vital safety issue as constant access to power is needed to run cooling systems and prevent core meltdowns.

Regulations currently require nuclear power plants to have as few as four hours of emergency power. NRC Chairman Gregory Jaczko said during a commission meeting that this might not be enough, because it could take much longer to reconnect to the main power supply or a backup diesel generator after a plant suffers major damage in a catastrophic event.

... ...

In the wake of the Fukushima disaster, nuclear experts have raised questions about the adequacy of emergency power supplies at U.S. facilities. They have taken particular issue with nuclear plants that rely on batteries because the batteries have limited lifespans.

Dozens of U.S. nuclear plants rely on batteries for emergency power, which should come on if the primary and backup power are out.

Other plants rely on alternative electricity supplies, such as gas turbines, for emergency power, and the NRC grants some of them longer periods of time to reconnect to reliable power.

Outlaw Yogi

Re: Is there a role for nuclear energy?

Post by Outlaw Yogi » Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:51 pm

Beyond Nuclear Petitions US NRC for Suspension of 21 Atomic Reactor Licenses in Wake of Japanese Nuclear Catastrophe
http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2011/04/19-11
Watchdog group alleges General Electric Boiling Water Reactor Mark 1 design’s weak containment, inadequate experimental venting back fit, and radioactive waste storage pool are accidents waiting to happen.
Beyond Nuclear’s emergency enforcement petition, brought under Title 10, Part 2.206 of the Code of Federal Regulations, also calls for emergency diesel generators and backup batteries to be connected to 24 GE BWR Mark 1 reactor units’ storage pools for high-level radioactive waste. Currently, these elevated storage pools for irradiated nuclear fuel are located outside of credited primary containment structures and lack “Class E1” safety-related backup power supply systems in the event of a loss of electricity from the primary grid for running cooling water circulation pumps. These 24 pools include those at the permanently closed Millstone Unit 1 atomic reactor in Connecticut, as well as the Brunswick Units 1 and 2 atomic reactors in North Carolina.

“It is incredible that pools for storing high-level radioactive wastes in the U.S. are not connected to emergency backup power supplies,” said Kevin Kamps, Radioactive Waste Watchdog at Beyond Nuclear. “Any loss of the electrical grid – whether due to tornadoes, hurricanes, ice storms, or even wildlife or tree branches touching power lines – could begin pool boiling within hours, leading to complete boil off within a day or two, followed by a radioactive waste inferno within hours of the irradiated nuclear fuel losing its cooling water cover,” Kamps added.


“Whereas Fukushima Dai-Ichi Unit 4’s pool contained around 130 tons of high-level radioactive waste, pools in the U.S. are crammed with significantly more,” Kamps added. “For example, Fermi Unit 2 in Michigan – the largest GE BWR Mark 1 in the world – has well over 500 tons of high-level radioactive waste crammed into its pool. This means that without the primary electrical grid, the pool could begin boiling in just over four hours, could boil dry and catch fire all that much more quickly, and the consequences downwind would be multiple times worse than the still-unfolding catastrophe at Fukushima Dai-Ichi Unit 4’s pool,” Kamps concluded.

Outlaw Yogi

Re: Is there a role for nuclear energy?

Post by Outlaw Yogi » Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:14 pm

Gov. Shumlin says state will fight Entergy's Vermont Yankee lawsuit
http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/arti ... lant-open-
MONTPELIER — Vermont Yankee owner Entergy Corp. turned to federal court Monday to try to keep Vermont from shutting down the Vernon nuclear power plant, setting the stage for a final fight with the state regarding the plant’s future.
Entergy’s lawsuit asks for a temporary injunction against any Vermont efforts “to shut down or make preparations to shut down” Vermont Yankee while the case is pending. The lawsuit also seeks a ruling permanently prohibiting the state from shuttering the plant. The company is demanding, too, that Vermont pay Entergy’s attorney fees and costs.

The U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission last month granted the 39-year-old Vermont Yankee plant a 20-year extension of its operating license. The plant has failed to win state permission to keep operating, however, amid concerns involving tritium leaks and misinformation the company supplied to the state related to the leaks.

Meanwhile the nuke industry is trying to abate/prevent its demise by compelling electricity users to pay a surcharge/levy to buy the power utility company new reactors they refuse to invest their own capital in.


Watchdog Group Charges Buffett with Swindling Iowans over New Nuclear Reactor
http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2011/04/27-3
OMAHA, Neb. - April 27 - As shareholders began arriving for Berkshire Hathaway’s annual meeting, Friends of the Earth placed an advertisement in the Omaha World-Herald challenging Warren Buffett to halt an attempt by one of his companies to force Iowa ratepayers to invest in a new nuclear reactor.

Following the nuclear disaster in Japan, Mr. Buffett asserted to CNBC that nuclear facility construction in the U.S. will be “dead for a long, long time.”

Yet in Iowa, a Berkshire Hathaway-controlled company, MidAmerican Energy, is pushing the legislature to pass a bill that would allow the company to raise the public’s electric rates upfront in order to pay for a new nuclear reactor—and to reap the benefits of the higher rates even if, as Buffett himself suggested, a new reactor is never constructed.

“Mr. Buffett is known for prudent and thoughtful investing. It’s no surprise that he is unwilling to invest his, or his backers’, money in nuclear reactors,” said Erich Pica, president of Friends of the Earth.

“It would be unconscionable for Mr. Buffett’s company to swindle Iowans into investing in a project that he himself has apparently written off. Unless MidAmerican changes course in Iowa, Mr. Buffett could go from being the Oracle of Omaha to the Swindler of Cedar Rapids,” added Pica.

Recent polling shows that 75 percent of Iowans oppose the legislation pushed by MidAmerican. The Iowa House passed the bill yesterday and the bill is expected to come up for a vote in the Senate this week.

Jovial Monk

Re: Is there a role for nuclear energy?

Post by Jovial Monk » Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:52 pm

I see a bloody big 4th Gen nuke plant just outside Pt Augusta, can supply SA and make up for closure of Hazelwood brown coal power generator.

No force 9 earthquake, no tsunami, stable cratonised ground, a Gulf to bring sea water for cooling, a salt lake to take the cooling water once it has done its job and has been cooled down.

Further, Pt Pirie can become a port receiving high grade nuclear waste from around the world and do some preprocessing then shipping them via rail to Broken Hill for burying in some of the old silver/lead/zinc mines.

So extremely safely we generate emissions-free electricity and remove radioactive waste from the environment and earn a motza doing so.

There will be university campuses opened up in Pt Augusta, Pt Pirie and Broken Hill, subsidiary industries, work for the railways—a winner all round!

Eventually nuclear fusion will see each houshold, every car and boat etc etc have its own silent safe continuous power generator.

Not only that a few whacking great nuke power stations on the NW coast could sell power to Indonesia so they don’t have to site nuke plants on fault lines! Again cratonised ground, stable, seawater for cooling etc.

Petrol prices are zooming, time for renewables has largely run out tho windfarms on both sides of Backstairs Passage (on Kangaroo Isl and behind Victor Harbor–Goolwa) would be good, allowing the nuke plant near Pt Augusta to sell more power to Vic & NSW.

That is how I see it. That is how anyone with a clear mind will see it.

Outlaw Yogi

Re: Is there a role for nuclear energy?

Post by Outlaw Yogi » Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:31 pm

So it should be OK to store excess plutonium under your house?

And again, just precisely who do you expect to pay for the massive reactor construction, operating, and decomissioning costs? ... Which is probably the the most pertinent question here, considering the nuke industry doesn't have enough faith in its own product to put any of its money in any nuke project anywhere at any time.

The Breeder Reactor
http://www.3rd1000.com/nuclear/nuke101g.htm
Conventional nuclear reactors use uranium-235 as their fuel. However, uranium-235 makes up less than 1% of naturally occurring uranium. Most uranium occurs as the isotope uranium-238. The only problem is that uranium-238 can't be used in conventional nuclear reactors. It doesn't undergo fission like uranium-235. However, if uranium-238 could be used as a nuclear fuel, there would be sufficient uranium to run nuclear reactors for hundreds of years.

The Breeder Reactor was developed to use uranium-238. Here's how it works. A reactor is built with a core of fissionable plutonium, Pu-239. The plutonium-239 core is surrounded by a layer of uranium-238. As the plutonium-239 undergoes spontaneous fission, it releases neutrons. These neutrons convert uranium-238 to plutonium-239. In other words, this reactor breeds fuel (Pu-239) as it operates. After all the uranium-238 has been changed to plutonium-239, the reactor is refueled.

However, there are some major problems with the breeder reactor. To begin with, plutonium-239 is extremely toxic. If an individual inhales a small amount, he or she will contract lung cancer. Also, the half-life of the material is extremely long, about 24,000 years. This could create an almost impossible disposal problem if large amounts of this material are generated.

Also, because of the nature of the reactor core, water can't be used as a coolant. Instead, liquid sodium must be used. In the event of an accident a catastrophe could develop because sodium reacts violently with water and air.


Nuclear Waste/'Fast Breeder' Reactor - Study: Problem-Plagued Reactor No Solution to Long-Term Nuclear Waste Problem
http://www.salem-news.com/articles/febr ... actors.php
(PRINCETON, N.J. ) - Hopes that the “fast breeder”– a plutonium-fueled nuclear reactor designed to produce more fuel than it consumed -- might serve as a major part of the long-term nuclear waste disposal solution are not merited by the dismal track record to date of such sodium-cooled reactors in France, India, Japan, the Soviet Union/Russia, the United Kingdom and the United States, according to a major new study from the International Panel on Fissile Materials (IPFM).

Titled “Fast Breeder Reactor Programs: History and Status,” the IPFM report concludes: “The problems (with fast breeder reactors) … make it hard to dispute Admiral Hyman Rickover’s summation in 1956, based on his experience with a sodium-cooled reactor developed to power an early U.S. nuclear submarine, that such reactors are ‘expensive to build, complex to operate, susceptible to prolonged shutdown as a result of even minor malfunctions, and difficult and time-consuming to repair.’”

Plagued by high costs, often multi-year downtime for repairs (including a 15-year reactor restart delay in Japan), multiple safety problems (among them often catastrophic sodium fires triggered simply by contact with oxygen), and unresolved proliferation risks, “fast breeder” reactors already have been the focus of more than $50 billion in development spending, including more than $10 billion each by the U.S., Japan and Russia. As the IPFM report notes: “Yet none of these efforts has produced a reactor that is anywhere near economically competitive with light-water reactors … After six decades and the expenditure of the equivalent of tens of billions of dollars, the promise of breeder reactors remains largely unfulfilled and efforts to commercialize them have been steadily cut back in most countries.”

The new IPFM report is a timely and important addition to the understanding about reactor technology. Today, with increased attention being paid both to so-called “Generation IV” reactors, some of which are based on the fast reactor technology, and a new Obama Administration panel focusing on reprocessing and other waste issues, interest in some quarters has shifted back to fast reactors as a possible means by which to bypass concerns about the long-term storage of nuclear waste.

Frank von Hippel, Ph.D., co-chair of the International Panel on Fissile Materials, and professor of Public and International Affairs, Woodrow Wilson School, Princeton University, said: “The breeder reactor dream is not dead but it has receded far into the future. In the 1970s, breeder advocates were predicting that the world would have thousands of breeder reactors operating by now. Today, they are predicting commercialization by approximately 2050. In the meantime, the world has to deal with the legacy of the dream; approximately 250 tons of separated weapon-usable plutonium and ongoing — although, in most cases struggling — reprocessing programs in France, India, Japan, Russia and the United Kingdom.”

Mycle Schneider, Paris, international consultant on energy and nuclear policy, said: “France built with Superphénix, the only commercial-size plutonium fueled breeder reactor in nuclear history. After an endless series of very costly technical, legal and safety problems it was shut down in 1998 with one of the worst operating records in nuclear history.”

Thomas B. Cochran, nuclear physicist and senior scientist in the Nuclear Program at the Natural Resources Defense Council, said: “Fast reactor development programs failed in the: 1) United States; 2) France; 3) United Kingdom; 4) Germany; 5) Japan; 6) Italy; 7) Soviet Union/Russia 8) U.S. Navy and 9) the Soviet Navy. The program in India is showing no signs of success and the program in China is only at a very early stage of development. Despite the fact that fast breeder development began in 1944, now some 65 year later, of the 438 operational nuclear power reactors worldwide, only one of these, the BN-600 in Russia, is a commercial-size fast reactor and it hardly qualifies as a successful breeder. The Soviet Union/Russia never closed the fuel cycle and has yet to fuel BN-600 with plutonium.”

M.V. Ramana, Ph.D., visiting research scholar, Woodrow Wilson School and the Program in Science, Technology, and Environmental Policy, Princeton University, said: “Along with Russia, India is one of only two countries that are currently constructing commercial scale breeder reactors. Both the history of the program and the economic and safety features of the reactor suggest, however, that the program will not fulfill the promises with which it was begun and is being pursued. Breeder reactors have always underpinned the DAE’s claims about generating large quantities of cheap electricity necessary for development. Today, more than five decades after those plans were announced, that promise is yet to be fulfilled. As elsewhere, breeder reactors are likely to be unsafe and costly, and their contribution to overall electricity generation will be modest at best.”

Jovial Monk

Re: Is there a role for nuclear energy?

Post by Jovial Monk » Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:08 pm

The mines at BH I said, do you only think in cliches?

Thorium will be the fuel for the breeder reactors. I am sure you can dig up some dodgy paper saying thorium will cause the earth to explode. Renewables can’t do it so nukes it has to be, no way round it. With a carbon price in place nuke will become more economically feasible. A craton well away from any coasts (so not in Sydney or E coast) is a very suitable place for a nuke plant.

Emissions have to be reduced, end of story.

Outlaw Yogi

Re: Is there a role for nuclear energy?

Post by Outlaw Yogi » Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:04 am

Jovial Monk wrote:The mines at BH I said, do you only think in cliches?
So you've checked with residents of BH concerning potential of dumping of your mutagenic trash in their patch?

Image
http://www.brokenhill.nsw.gov.au/
Thorium will be the fuel for the breeder reactors. I am sure you can dig up some dodgy paper saying thorium will cause the earth to explode.
I've already posted the design faults/problems with Pebble bed (Thorium fueled) reactors, and pointed out that so far I have debunked every single point or imagined option you've proposed and are yet to address a single one of those points in support of your proposed option.
Germany seems to have $#!+ canned their pebble bed reactor, and India is playing secret sqirrel concering its pebble bed dramas, but won't give up (yet) 'coz they've got hardly any uranium, but heaps of thorium.

Renewables can’t do it so nukes it has to be, no way round it.
Renewables are already doing it. Nuke supplies 16% of the worlds electricity (less than than provided by burning wood) and renewables provide 19% (maybe more now) of the worlds electricity.
With a carbon price in place nuke will become more economically feasible.

But still wouldn't be able to compete with any existing renewables or even carbon taxed coal or gas unless nuke fuel processing was carbon tax exempt.
A craton well away from any coasts (so not in Sydney or E coast) is a very suitable place for a nuke plant.
Centralised (grid connected) power station isolation is restricted by current transmission losses in the lines. Greater the distance, greater the loss. Like the old Japanese scientist come activist who opposed the building of Fukushima nuke plant in the 1st place all those years ago (on grounds Fukushima is seismicly unstable) said "If nuclear reactors are so safe, why not build them in the middle of cities where most of the power is required?"
Emissions have to be reduced, end of story.
Quite right. And considering how GHG emissions intensive nuke fuel processing is, nuke power can't do it.

Jovial Monk

Re: Is there a role for nuclear energy?

Post by Jovial Monk » Sat Apr 30, 2011 9:23 am

Outlaw Yogi wrote:
Jovial Monk wrote:The mines at BH I said, do you only think in cliches?
So you've checked with residents of BH concerning potential of dumping of your mutagenic trash in their patch?
Like 1Km down a former lead/zinc/silver mine. Start thinking with your head not your gut FFS. “mutagenic trash” oh the widders and orphans are crying in the aisles. Fuck that emotive gut-thinking claptrap. Time for some clear thinking.
Thorium will be the fuel for the breeder reactors. I am sure you can dig up some dodgy paper saying thorium will cause the earth to explode.
I've already posted the design faults/problems with Pebble bed (Thorium fueled) reactors, and pointed out that so far I have debunked every single point or imagined option you've proposed and are yet to address a single one of those points in support of your proposed option.
Nah. Like I said you can dig up papers “debunking” just about anything on the web, doesn’t mean you have “debunked” something tho.
Renewables can’t do it so nukes it has to be, no way round it.
Renewables are already doing it. Nuke supplies 16% of the worlds electricity (less than than provided by burning wood) and renewables provide 19% (maybe more now) of the worlds electricity.
You have no idea of the effort it would take to have renewables supply say half a country’s electricity. Think 20Km by 20Km glass and steel and goodness knows what else—a small nuke plant would put out MUCH more electricity.
With a carbon price in place nuke will become more economically feasible.

But still wouldn't be able to compete with any existing renewables or even carbon taxed coal or gas unless nuke fuel processing was carbon priced exempt.
D’uh, use nuke or renewable energy to process the fucking fuel. As nuke power stations spread, as they will, that will become easier. Have you tried to think of the cost of 20Km by 20Km of polished mirrors, stainless steel pipes, copper cable etc? Of course you haven’t, you think with the gut like all greens, “renewables good, nuke bad.” I see the desperate need to reduce emissions and propose the only real answer. Or maybe, as Celly says, you idiotic Greens want humanity to go back to living in caves? Hint: not enough caves for 6Bn people, half of whom live subsistence lives, one drought away from starvation, no phone, no TV, no computer no internet and you don’t give a fucking shit as long as you can bask in a virtuous glow of “renewable energy in Australia and fuck anyone else.”
A craton well away from any coasts (so not in Sydney or E coast) is a very suitable place for a nuke plant.
Centralised (grid connected) power station isolation is restricted by current transmission losses in the lines. Greater the distance, greater the loss. Like the old Japanese scientist come activist who opposed the building of Fukushima in the 1st place all those years ago (on grounds Fukushima is seismicly unstable) said "If nuclear reactors are so safe, why not build them in the middle of cities where most of the power is required?"
Oh jesus, you never heard of extremely high voltage DC lines that are nearly lossless? There already is an interstate power line from Vic to SA. Christ, it is like arguing with a child!
Emissions have to be reduced, end of story.
Quite right. And considering how GHG emissions intensive nuke fuel processing is, nuke power can't do it.
Like I said, no less than in making one 20Km by 20KM solar thermal power station. Use renewable or nuke power to process the fuel. I propose nuke stations be built on cratons (craton, hmmmm sounds like cretin) away from coasts subject to tsunamis. Look up wiki for a definition of craton, cretin. See my point re building nuke stations on NW coast to sell electricity to Indonesia? Indonesia also wants to build nuke plants in seismically active areas, why not build them here in seismically inert areas away from the reach of tsunamis?

You know it makes sense.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 25 guests